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JT, this is not the case. Look on the WKPP site and tell me my suit has air
bubbles. I can do anything with that suit. Maybe you should advise the Navy
SEALs why they should not use the suit I use. I can reach anything I need to
reach in my suit with C-4 under it, and I have significantly more muscle
mass than you guys.
The correct answer is get a custom suit and learn buoyancy control. I have
four and they all work perfectly.
-----Original Message-----
From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:04 PM
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: drysuit answers
I have had a lot of emails over the drysuit statements. Below is compiled
emails from the VBtech list over the drysuits. Hope this helps everyone with
their questions.
The self donning with the telescoping torso causes to many air pockets
and is only there because it is needed for you to get into the suit, it
does not stretch. I do believe he said the TLS 350 also wears out extremely
fast.
Andy's is making a DS that is much to what everyone really needs, self
donning, stretchable, in a shell that is durable. Dave Dalton has one and so
does Todd, but theirs have not had the upgrades of the new ones coming out,
if I remember right.
I have a neoprene suit that is cheap one, but now that it has been down
to 400ft a bunch of times it is a high dollar crushed neoprene ;-0
hopefully some of these others guys will answer about the suits, they were
there just like me.
JT
JT,
I suspect you're referring to the DS2 from Andy's.... diaganol zipper
entry... no telescopic body.... Like I dived with y'all last year? I'm
curious as I don't recall ever hearing any of the GUE/WKPP folks mention
anything other than DUI previously.
BD
The TLS 350 is similar to what Andy calls the "Ultra",
his lightest material. I (and Todd & Allyson) have
the "Extreme" which is the heavier grade that Andrew
likes (but not the cordura, the heaviest).
The biggest problem he mentioned with the DUI is that
when you reach for your valves, the cut of the suit
restricts your motion (same for the DUI
undergarments). He pointed out that Andy puts in
panels under the arms and in the crotch as opposed to
the "rag doll" design of the sleeves on the DUI & most
others. This gives better freedom of movement. He
also said that he got Andy to redesign his diagonal
zipper so it terminates above the waist and doesn't
fold when you bend. He prefers that (the new DS-2) to
the DS-3 that we have, due to flex of the zipper when
doing a valve drill.
BTW, Andrew is GUE, not (as far as I know) WKPP.
Dave Dalton
I have the DUI 450 and noticed the following things in the class-
-When the backplate is in the proper position the telescope flaps stick
out
and catches your long hose and light cable. I was wearing my plate way too
low and the belt was holding the "skirt" in and never noticed it before.
And
when you have the proper amount of air in the suit (i.e. practically none)
the suit does not telescope. I know, I have one.
-As JT mentioned the armpits are cut like they would be on a shirt or
jacket, there is not enough material to allow reaching your valves,
particularly with the thick cordura the 450 has.
-With the backplate adjusted correctly DUI puts the exhaust valve in
exactly
the wrong position, it impedes the left strap from getting on/off your
shoulder.
I suppose that DUI could add the material to the armpits to allow reaching
the valves, but this would mean dealing with DUI, and that would mean
pretty
much not having a drysuit for a period of several months. But I suppose
when
you are sending it back to get the various leaks fixed that DUI suits are
plagued with, you can have the mods done then.
From what I gathered the "dream suit" for DIR ocean divers would:
-Be of a stretchable fabric which does not absorb water like crushed
neoprene.
-Cut with panels in the armpits and crotch to allow reaching the valves.
-a diagonal self-donning zipper that does not go so low as to get stressed
when you bend over.
-Velcro seal bellows pockets on both sides cut so your hand can slip into
them without the top folding in, equipped with grommets for a belay line.
-An exhaust valve on the outside of the forearm rather than the
upper-outside of the arm.
-An inflate valve which has restricted air flow. This is for the event of
a
stuck DS inflater valve or regulator and to keep you from putting too much
air in the DS to begin with.
-Hard boots with reinforcement where the top of the fin pocket rubs.
-P valve located on the leg more towards the inseam than sticking our
front.
-Thinsulate underwear with stretchable panels in the armpits and crotch
(thinsulte does not stretch) or perhaps development of stretchable
thinsulate.
The goals are:
-To be able to reach your valves with no air in the suit.
-To be streamlined yet flexible.
-To be easily purgable in the correct (horizontal) position.
-To have large, easy access pockets on both sides.
Currently this suit does not exist. The folks with the cheapest DUI 200
(i.e. The model without the telescope) seem to come closest to the ideal,
near as I can tell, if you get the purge valve in the right place and the
correct pockets installed. The Andy's have the crotch and armpit panels
but
you have to have a fair amount of drag-producing trilam material to allow
you movement and their pockets suck.
But if I were about to drop 2 large on a drysuit I would try to find one
which incorporates as many of the above features as possible, with the
number one priority of being able to reach your valves with no air in the
suit.
I may have missed something here or not interpreted correctly, gang please
correct me where I am wrong.
Jim Cobb
Andrew is not a supporter of DUI DS, his preference is Dive Concepts in
California and Andy's.
I have a DUI CF200 with the telescoping body. I asked him about the DS and
the only bad thing, which we all know, is the absorption of water and time
to dry. It does not develop the folds as the Trilamines do. It is more
durable then the type trilamines. He stated that two divers, same setup
and
scooters, the crashed neoprene will slowly walk away from the trilamine.
Crashed Neoprene down side again is weight and time to dry especially if
you
are traveling.
The Andy's suit is, DS2 with the Ultra or Cordura. There a modification to
the DS2 zipper placement cutting higher on the body instead of the
traditional lower on the right side.
The important part to all this is movement or motion. As one raises the
arm
in both the undergarment and DS w/undergarment, the restriction of the
movement is the issue under the arm pit. That is wear the stretch points
and
restriction in movement occurs. The ability to reach the valves. (See
David
Dalton comment on the panel - important to relieve the restrict issue.)
Dive Concepts sound as if they are building a DS to order with important
mod's and improvement. Several reference to them but more the Andy's. I
think because he is on our coast and general neighborhood.
David Widen
Andrew really liked the Andy's suits. The only thing Allyson and I didn't
get on ours was the new diagonal zipper that Andrew got Andy to add. Ours
are the DS3s with the zipper that goes straight across the front.
The sleeve sort of telescopes over the seal so you don't put pressure on
the wrist seal when you reach for your valves, etc. The material is heavier
than the TLS 350, but it still is very flexible. It has a sort of panel
built in under the arm that allows some stretch (same with the legs) and it
comes stock with the SI Tek valves. It also has a nice slim boot (Andy calls
it the tech boot) that fits perfectly into the XL Jetfins. There have been
some complaints about the boots splitting after several hundred dives
(Andrew does about 600 a year), but at least they fit the fins nicely. The
suit is well made and has nice heavy duty latex seals.
Todd Claggett
I forgot to mention that the DS2 zipper that comes straight down is not
the zipper that Andrew recommends. He has apparently gotten Andy to make one
that curves at the bottom, sort of around the waist a bit instead of just
straight. It takes the stress off of the zipper and makes it last longer.
Todd
I believe the key was that Andy's suits have a little extra material under
the armpit to allow proper mobility i.e., reaching your valves and in the
crotch area for proper kicking. The medium grade tri-lam is also a little
more durable than the tls 350. Finally, the new model that Andrew called the
5th D spec. has a zipper that is self donning much like the tls 350, but
instead of the zipper ending at the hip, it ends midway between the hip and
shoulder. This puts less wear on the zipper when you bend over.
Tom Sawicki
"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in
the water"
Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email captjt@mi*.co*
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D423393309-07052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>JT,=20
this is not the case. Look on the WKPP site and tell me my suit has air =
bubbles.=20
I can do anything with that suit. Maybe you should advise the Navy SEALs =
why=20
they should not use the suit I use. I can reach anything I need to reach =
in my=20
suit with C-4 under it, and I have significantly more muscle mass than =
you guys.=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D423393309-07052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D423393309-07052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
correct answer is get a custom suit and learn buoyancy control. I have =
four and=20
they all work perfectly.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Capt JT=20
[mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 06, 2002 =
6:04=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B>
drysuit=20
answers<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>I have had a lot of emails over the =
drysuit=20
statements. Below is compiled emails from the VBtech list over the =
drysuits.=20
Hope this helps everyone with their questions.<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite">The self donning with the telescoping =
torso=20
causes to many air pockets and is only there because it is =
needed for=20
you to get into the suit, it does not stretch. I do believe he said =
the TLS=20
350 also wears out extremely fast.<BR><BR>Andy's is making a DS that =
is much=20
to what everyone really needs, self donning, stretchable, in a shell =
that is=20
durable. Dave Dalton has one and so does Todd, but theirs have not =
had the=20
upgrades of the new ones coming out, if I remember right.<BR><BR>I =
have a=20
neoprene suit that is cheap one, but now that it has been down to =
400ft a=20
bunch of times it is a high dollar crushed neoprene ;-0 =
hopefully some=20
of these others guys will answer about the suits, they were there =
just like=20
me.<BR><BR><BR><BR>JT</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><FONT
face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#0000ff>JT,=20
<BR><BR>I suspect you're referring to the DS2 from Andy's.... diaganol =
zipper=20
entry... no telescopic body.... Like I dived with y'all last year? I'm =
curious=20
as I don't recall ever hearing any of the GUE/WKPP folks mention =
anything=20
other than DUI previously. <BR><BR>BD</FONT><FONT
face=3DVerdana>=20
<BR><BR></FONT>The TLS 350 is similar to what Andy calls the
"Ultra", =
<BR>his=20
lightest material. I (and Todd & Allyson) have <BR>the "Extreme" =
which is=20
the heavier grade that Andrew <BR>likes (but not the cordura, the=20
heaviest).<BR>The biggest problem he mentioned with the DUI is that =
<BR>when=20
you reach for your valves, the cut of the suit <BR>restricts your =
motion (same=20
for the DUI <BR>undergarments). He pointed out that Andy puts in =
<BR>panels=20
under the arms and in the crotch as opposed to <BR>the "rag doll" =
design of=20
the sleeves on the DUI & most <BR>others. This gives better =
freedom of=20
movement. He <BR>also said that he got Andy to redesign his diagonal=20
<BR>zipper so it terminates above the waist and doesn't <BR>fold when =
you=20
bend. He prefers that (the new DS-2) to <BR>the DS-3 that we have, due =
to flex=20
of the zipper when <BR>doing a valve drill.<BR>BTW, Andrew is GUE, not =
(as far=20
as I know) WKPP.<BR><BR>Dave Dalton<BR><BR>I have the DUI 450 and
=
noticed the=20
following things in the class-<BR>-When the backplate is in the proper =
position the telescope flaps stick out <BR>and catches your long hose =
and=20
light cable. I was wearing my plate way too <BR>low and the belt was =
holding=20
the "skirt" in and never noticed it before. And <BR>when you have the =
proper=20
amount of air in the suit (i.e. practically none) <BR>the suit does =
not=20
telescope. I know, I have one.<BR>-As JT mentioned the armpits are cut =
like=20
they would be on a shirt or <BR>jacket, there is not enough material =
to allow=20
reaching your valves, <BR>particularly with the thick cordura the 450=20
has.<BR>-With the backplate adjusted correctly DUI puts the exhaust =
valve in=20
exactly <BR>the wrong position, it impedes the left strap from getting =
on/off=20
your <BR>shoulder.<BR>I suppose that DUI could add the material to the =
armpits=20
to allow reaching <BR>the valves, but this would mean dealing with =
DUI, and=20
that would mean pretty <BR>much not having a drysuit for a period of =
several=20
months. But I suppose when <BR>you are sending it back to get the =
various=20
leaks fixed that DUI suits are <BR>plagued with, you can have the mods =
done=20
then.<BR>From what I gathered the "dream suit" for DIR ocean divers =
would:=20
<BR>-Be of a stretchable fabric which does not absorb water like =
crushed=20
<BR>neoprene.<BR>-Cut with panels in the armpits and crotch to allow =
reaching=20
the valves.<BR>-a diagonal self-donning zipper that does not go so low =
as to=20
get stressed <BR>when you bend over.<BR>-Velcro seal bellows pockets =
on both=20
sides cut so your hand can slip into <BR>them without the top folding =
in,=20
equipped with grommets for a belay line.<BR>-An exhaust valve on the =
outside=20
of the forearm rather than the <BR>upper-outside of the arm.<BR>-An =
inflate=20
valve which has restricted air flow. This is for the event of a =
<BR>stuck DS=20
inflater valve or regulator and to keep you from putting too much =
<BR>air in=20
the DS to begin with.<BR>-Hard boots with reinforcement where the top =
of the=20
fin pocket rubs.<BR>-P valve located on the leg more towards the =
inseam than=20
sticking our front.<BR>-Thinsulate underwear with stretchable panels =
in the=20
armpits and crotch <BR>(thinsulte does not stretch) or perhaps =
development of=20
stretchable <BR>thinsulate.<BR>The goals are: <BR>-To be able to
reach =
your=20
valves with no air in the suit. <BR>-To be streamlined yet flexible. =
<BR>-To=20
be easily purgable in the correct (horizontal) position. <BR>-To have =
large,=20
easy access pockets on both sides.<BR>Currently this suit does not =
exist. The=20
folks with the cheapest DUI 200 <BR>(i.e. The model without the =
telescope)=20
seem to come closest to the ideal, <BR>near as I can tell, if you get =
the=20
purge valve in the right place and the <BR>correct pockets installed. =
The=20
Andy's have the crotch and armpit panels but <BR>you have to have a =
fair=20
amount of drag-producing trilam material to allow <BR>you movement and =
their=20
pockets suck.<BR>But if I were about to drop 2 large on a drysuit I =
would try=20
to find one <BR>which incorporates as many of the above features as =
possible,=20
with the <BR>number one priority of being able to reach your valves =
with no=20
air in the <BR>suit.<BR>I may have missed something here or not =
interpreted=20
correctly, gang please <BR>correct me where I am wrong.<BR>Jim=20
Cobb<BR><BR>Andrew is not a supporter of DUI DS, his preference is =
Dive=20
Concepts in <BR>California and Andy's. <BR>I have a DUI CF200 with the =
telescoping body. I asked him about the DS and <BR>the only bad thing, =
which=20
we all know, is the absorption of water and time <BR>to dry. It does =
not=20
develop the folds as the Trilamines do. It is more <BR>durable then =
the type=20
trilamines. He stated that two divers, same setup and <BR>scooters, =
the=20
crashed neoprene will slowly walk away from the trilamine.<BR>Crashed =
Neoprene=20
down side again is weight and time to dry especially if you <BR>are=20
traveling.<BR>The Andy's suit is, DS2 with the Ultra or Cordura. There =
a=20
modification to <BR>the DS2 zipper placement cutting higher on the =
body=20
instead of the <BR>traditional lower on the right side.<BR>The =
important part=20
to all this is movement or motion. As one raises the arm <BR>in both =
the=20
undergarment and DS w/undergarment, the restriction of the =
<BR>movement is the=20
issue under the arm pit. That is wear the stretch points and =
<BR>restriction=20
in movement occurs. The ability to reach the valves. (See David =
<BR>Dalton=20
comment on the panel - important to relieve the restrict =
issue.)<BR>Dive=20
Concepts sound as if they are building a DS to order with important =
<BR>mod's=20
and improvement. Several reference to them but more the Andy's. I =
<BR>think=20
because he is on our coast and general neighborhood.<BR>David=20
Widen<BR><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Andrew really liked the Andy's =
suits. The=20
only thing Allyson and I didn't get on ours was the new diagonal =
zipper that=20
Andrew got Andy to add. Ours are the DS3s with the zipper that goes =
straight=20
across the front.</FONT> <BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>The sleeve sort
of =
telescopes=20
over the seal so you don't put pressure on the wrist seal when you =
reach for=20
your valves, etc. The material is heavier than the TLS 350, but it =
still is=20
very flexible. It has a sort of panel built in under the arm that =
allows some=20
stretch (same with the legs) and it comes stock with the SI Tek =
valves. It=20
also has a nice slim boot (Andy calls it the tech boot) that fits =
perfectly=20
into the XL Jetfins. There have been some complaints about the boots =
splitting=20
after several hundred dives (Andrew does about 600 a year), but at =
least they=20
fit the fins nicely. The suit is well made and has nice heavy duty =
latex=20
seals. <BR>Todd Claggett<BR><BR>I forgot to mention that the DS2 =
zipper that=20
comes straight down is not the zipper that Andrew recommends. He has=20
apparently gotten Andy to make one that curves at the bottom, sort of =
around=20
the waist a bit instead of just straight. It takes the stress off of =
the=20
zipper and makes it last longer.</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>Todd<BR><BR></FONT>I believe the key was that Andy's
=
suits have=20
a little extra material under the armpit to allow proper mobility =
i.e.,=20
reaching your valves and in the crotch area for proper kicking. The =
medium=20
grade tri-lam is also a little more durable than the tls 350. Finally, =
the new=20
model that Andrew called the 5th D spec. has a zipper that is self =
donning=20
much like the tls 350, but instead of the zipper ending at the hip, it =
ends=20
midway between the hip and shoulder. This puts less wear on the zipper =
when=20
you bend over.<BR>Tom =
Sawicki<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>"Yo
u=20
can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the =
water"<BR><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff><U>Your Guide to Great Wreck =
Diving along=20
the East Coast & more <BR> Web Site <A=20
href=3D"http://www.capt-jt.com/"=20
=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</A><BR>Email =
=20
captjt@mi*.co*<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></U></BODY></HTML
>
------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C1F589.5939F620--
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