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--=====================_18409647==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Just reporting the facts of the class, if the class says one thing and you say another then things are normal. At 06:17 PM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote: >Real simple - who has been doing it longer and who is new at it. I am >getting real sick of the bullshit. The real story is the nobody can make >any money on the TLS 350 so nobody wants to promote it, so we have to >listen to all the bullshit reinventions of the wheel that show up once a >week. The other brands have giant margins relative to DUI. You figure it >out. You figure out if I am some superhuman breed or if I just happen to >know what I am talking about, as painful as that decision is for you. > >We (WKPP) get no special break from DUI and neither do the dealers. I >could care less what the suit costs, and I don't care what the margins >are. JJ asked me what I would want in a suit if I could have anything at >all made.He gets no love from DUI and no breaks. I told him exactly like >the TLS 350. JJ wants to add a seal protector - good idea, but that is >about it for what should be different. > >The suits do not need to have "stretch" material, they are not supposed to >be dove tight to your body, you are not supposed to have fifty layers of >bullshit on underneath, you are supposed to have a perfect set of C-4 and >nothing else, you are supposed to have the pockets and the valves where I >have them, and you are supposed to take care of the thing properly like >anything else. > >JT, you are unbelievable sometimes. You are the one who is always bitching >about sales tactics of the dive business, and you are always the first to >fall for them, and the first to ignore the thinking that has produced the >best track record in diving. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*] >>Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 1:46 PM >>To: trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com >>Subject: RE: drysuit answers >> >>I expected an email from you on this topic, so that puts me in a tough >>spot, who to believe. >> >> >> >> >> >>At 05:37 AM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote: >>>JT, this is not the case. Look on the WKPP site and tell me my suit has >>>air bubbles. I can do anything with that suit. Maybe you should advise >>>the Navy SEALs why they should not use the suit I use. I can reach >>>anything I need to reach in my suit with C-4 under it, and I have >>>significantly more muscle mass than you guys. >>> >>>The correct answer is get a custom suit and learn buoyancy control. I >>>have four and they all work perfectly. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*] >>>Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:04 PM >>>To: techdiver@aquanaut.com >>>Subject: drysuit answers >>> >>>I have had a lot of emails over the drysuit statements. Below is >>>compiled emails from the VBtech list over the drysuits. Hope this helps >>>everyone with their questions. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The self donning with the telescoping torso causes to many air pockets >>>>and is only there because it is needed for you to get into the suit, >>>>it does not stretch. I do believe he said the TLS 350 also wears out >>>>extremely fast. >>>> >>>>Andy's is making a DS that is much to what everyone really needs, self >>>>donning, stretchable, in a shell that is durable. Dave Dalton has one >>>>and so does Todd, but theirs have not had the upgrades of the new ones >>>>coming out, if I remember right. >>>> >>>>I have a neoprene suit that is cheap one, but now that it has been down >>>>to 400ft a bunch of times it is a high dollar crushed neoprene >>>>;-0 hopefully some of these others guys will answer about the suits, >>>>they were there just like me. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>JT >>> >>> >>>JT, >>> >>>I suspect you're referring to the DS2 from Andy's.... diaganol zipper >>>entry... no telescopic body.... Like I dived with y'all last year? I'm >>>curious as I don't recall ever hearing any of the GUE/WKPP folks mention >>>anything other than DUI previously. >>> >>>BD >>> >>>The TLS 350 is similar to what Andy calls the "Ultra", >>>his lightest material. I (and Todd & Allyson) have >>>the "Extreme" which is the heavier grade that Andrew >>>likes (but not the cordura, the heaviest). >>>The biggest problem he mentioned with the DUI is that >>>when you reach for your valves, the cut of the suit >>>restricts your motion (same for the DUI >>>undergarments). He pointed out that Andy puts in >>>panels under the arms and in the crotch as opposed to >>>the "rag doll" design of the sleeves on the DUI & most >>>others. This gives better freedom of movement. He >>>also said that he got Andy to redesign his diagonal >>>zipper so it terminates above the waist and doesn't >>>fold when you bend. He prefers that (the new DS-2) to >>>the DS-3 that we have, due to flex of the zipper when >>>doing a valve drill. >>>BTW, Andrew is GUE, not (as far as I know) WKPP. >>> >>>Dave Dalton >>> >>>I have the DUI 450 and noticed the following things in the class- >>>-When the backplate is in the proper position the telescope flaps stick out >>>and catches your long hose and light cable. I was wearing my plate way too >>>low and the belt was holding the "skirt" in and never noticed it before. >>>And >>>when you have the proper amount of air in the suit (i.e. practically none) >>>the suit does not telescope. I know, I have one. >>>-As JT mentioned the armpits are cut like they would be on a shirt or >>>jacket, there is not enough material to allow reaching your valves, >>>particularly with the thick cordura the 450 has. >>>-With the backplate adjusted correctly DUI puts the exhaust valve in >>>exactly >>>the wrong position, it impedes the left strap from getting on/off your >>>shoulder. >>>I suppose that DUI could add the material to the armpits to allow reaching >>>the valves, but this would mean dealing with DUI, and that would mean >>>pretty >>>much not having a drysuit for a period of several months. But I suppose >>>when >>>you are sending it back to get the various leaks fixed that DUI suits are >>>plagued with, you can have the mods done then. >>> From what I gathered the "dream suit" for DIR ocean divers would: >>>-Be of a stretchable fabric which does not absorb water like crushed >>>neoprene. >>>-Cut with panels in the armpits and crotch to allow reaching the valves. >>>-a diagonal self-donning zipper that does not go so low as to get stressed >>>when you bend over. >>>-Velcro seal bellows pockets on both sides cut so your hand can slip into >>>them without the top folding in, equipped with grommets for a belay line. >>>-An exhaust valve on the outside of the forearm rather than the >>>upper-outside of the arm. >>>-An inflate valve which has restricted air flow. This is for the event of a >>>stuck DS inflater valve or regulator and to keep you from putting too much >>>air in the DS to begin with. >>>-Hard boots with reinforcement where the top of the fin pocket rubs. >>>-P valve located on the leg more towards the inseam than sticking our >>>front. >>>-Thinsulate underwear with stretchable panels in the armpits and crotch >>>(thinsulte does not stretch) or perhaps development of stretchable >>>thinsulate. >>>The goals are: >>>-To be able to reach your valves with no air in the suit. >>>-To be streamlined yet flexible. >>>-To be easily purgable in the correct (horizontal) position. >>>-To have large, easy access pockets on both sides. >>>Currently this suit does not exist. The folks with the cheapest DUI 200 >>>(i.e. The model without the telescope) seem to come closest to the ideal, >>>near as I can tell, if you get the purge valve in the right place and the >>>correct pockets installed. The Andy's have the crotch and armpit panels but >>>you have to have a fair amount of drag-producing trilam material to allow >>>you movement and their pockets suck. >>>But if I were about to drop 2 large on a drysuit I would try to find one >>>which incorporates as many of the above features as possible, with the >>>number one priority of being able to reach your valves with no air in the >>>suit. >>>I may have missed something here or not interpreted correctly, gang please >>>correct me where I am wrong. >>>Jim Cobb >>>Andrew is not a supporter of DUI DS, his preference is Dive Concepts in >>>California and Andy's. >>>I have a DUI CF200 with the telescoping body. I asked him about the DS and >>>the only bad thing, which we all know, is the absorption of water and time >>>to dry. It does not develop the folds as the Trilamines do. It is more >>>durable then the type trilamines. He stated that two divers, same setup and >>>scooters, the crashed neoprene will slowly walk away from the trilamine. >>>Crashed Neoprene down side again is weight and time to dry especially if >>>you >>>are traveling. >>>The Andy's suit is, DS2 with the Ultra or Cordura. There a modification to >>>the DS2 zipper placement cutting higher on the body instead of the >>>traditional lower on the right side. >>>The important part to all this is movement or motion. As one raises the arm >>>in both the undergarment and DS w/undergarment, the restriction of the >>>movement is the issue under the arm pit. That is wear the stretch points >>>and >>>restriction in movement occurs. The ability to reach the valves. (See David >>>Dalton comment on the panel - important to relieve the restrict issue.) >>>Dive Concepts sound as if they are building a DS to order with important >>>mod's and improvement. Several reference to them but more the Andy's. I >>>think because he is on our coast and general neighborhood. >>>David Widen >>>Andrew really liked the Andy's suits. The only thing Allyson and I >>>didn't get on ours was the new diagonal zipper that Andrew got Andy to >>>add. Ours are the DS3s with the zipper that goes straight across the front. >>>The sleeve sort of telescopes over the seal so you don't put pressure on >>>the wrist seal when you reach for your valves, etc. The material is >>>heavier than the TLS 350, but it still is very flexible. It has a sort >>>of panel built in under the arm that allows some stretch (same with the >>>legs) and it comes stock with the SI Tek valves. It also has a nice slim >>>boot (Andy calls it the tech boot) that fits perfectly into the XL >>>Jetfins. There have been some complaints about the boots splitting after >>>several hundred dives (Andrew does about 600 a year), but at least they >>>fit the fins nicely. The suit is well made and has nice heavy duty latex >>>seals. >>>Todd Claggett >>> >>>I forgot to mention that the DS2 zipper that comes straight down is not >>>the zipper that Andrew recommends. He has apparently gotten Andy to make >>>one that curves at the bottom, sort of around the waist a bit instead of >>>just straight. It takes the stress off of the zipper and makes it last >>>longer. >>>Todd >>> >>>I believe the key was that Andy's suits have a little extra material >>>under the armpit to allow proper mobility i.e., reaching your valves and >>>in the crotch area for proper kicking. The medium grade tri-lam is also >>>a little more durable than the tls 350. Finally, the new model that >>>Andrew called the 5th D spec. has a zipper that is self donning much >>>like the tls 350, but instead of the zipper ending at the hip, it ends >>>midway between the hip and shoulder. This puts less wear on the zipper >>>when you bend over. >>>Tom Sawicki >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in >>>the water" >>> >>>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more >>> Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ >>>Email captjt@mi*.co* >>> >>> >>> >>>"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in >>>the water" >>> >>>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more >>> Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ >>>Email captjt@mi*.co* > >"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in >the water" > >Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more > Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ >Email captjt@mi*.co* > --=====================_18409647==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" <html> Just reporting the facts of the class, if the class says one thing and you say another then things are normal.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> At 06:17 PM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote:<br> <font face="arial" size=2 color="#0000FF"><blockquote type=cite cite>Real simple - who has been doing it longer and who is new at it. I am getting real sick of the bullshit. The real story is the nobody can make any money on the TLS 350 so nobody wants to promote it, so we have to listen to all the bullshit reinventions of the wheel that show up once a week. The other brands have giant margins relative to DUI. You figure it out. You figure out if I am some superhuman breed or if I just happen to know what I am talking about, as painful as that decision is for you.</font><br> <br> <font face="arial" size=2 color="#0000FF">We (WKPP) get no special break from DUI and neither do the dealers. I could care less what the suit costs, and I don't care what the margins are. JJ asked me what I would want in a suit if I could have anything at all made.He gets no love from DUI and no breaks. I told him exactly like the TLS 350. JJ wants to add a seal protector - good idea, but that is about it for what should be different.</font><br> <br> <font face="arial" size=2 color="#0000FF">The suits do not need to have "stretch" material, they are not supposed to be dove tight to your body, you are not supposed to have fifty layers of bullshit on underneath, you are supposed to have a perfect set of C-4 and nothing else, you are supposed to have the pockets and the valves where I have them, and you are supposed to take care of the thing properly like anything else.</font><br> <br> <font face="arial" size=2 color="#0000FF">JT, you are unbelievable sometimes. You are the one who is always bitching about sales tactics of the dive business, and you are always the first to fall for them, and the first to ignore the thinking that has produced the best track record in diving. </font><blockquote><font face="tahoma" size=2> <dl> <dd>-----Original Message----- <dd>From:</b> Capt JT [<a href="mailto:captjt@mi*.co*" eudora="autourl">mailto:captjt@mi*.co*</a>] <dd>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 07, 2002 1:46 PM <dd>To:</b> trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com <dd>Subject:</b> RE: drysuit answers<br> <br> </font> <dd>I expected an email from you on this topic, so that puts me in a tough spot, who to believe. <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <dd>At 05:37 AM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote:<font face="arial" size=2 color="#0000FF"><blockquote type=cite cite> <dd>JT, this is not the case. Look on the WKPP site and tell me my suit has air bubbles. I can do anything with that suit. Maybe you should advise the Navy SEALs why they should not use the suit I use. I can reach anything I need to reach in my suit with C-4 under it, and I have significantly more muscle mass than you guys. </font> <dd> <font face="arial" size=2 color="#0000FF"> <dd>The correct answer is get a custom suit and learn buoyancy control. I have four and they all work perfectly.</font> <font face="tahoma" size=2> <dd>-----Original Message----- <dd>From: Capt JT [<a href="mailto:captjt@mi*.co*" eudora="autourl">mailto:captjt@mi*.co*</a>] <dd>Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:04 PM <dd>To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <dd>Subject: drysuit answers<br> <br> </font> <dd>I have had a lot of emails over the drysuit statements. Below is compiled emails from the VBtech list over the drysuits. Hope this helps everyone with their questions.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <blockquote type=cite cite> <dd>The self donning with the telescoping torso causes to many air pockets and is only there because it is needed for you to get into the suit, it does not stretch. I do believe he said the TLS 350 also wears out extremely fast.<br> <br> <dd>Andy's is making a DS that is much to what everyone really needs, self donning, stretchable, in a shell that is durable. Dave Dalton has one and so does Todd, but theirs have not had the upgrades of the new ones coming out, if I remember right.<br> <br> <dd>I have a neoprene suit that is cheap one, but now that it has been down to 400ft a bunch of times it is a high dollar crushed neoprene ;-0 hopefully some of these others guys will answer about the suits, they were there just like me.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <dd>JT</blockquote><br> <br> <font face="verdana" color="#0000FF"> <dd>JT, <br> <br> <dd>I suspect you're referring to the DS2 from Andy's.... diaganol zipper entry... no telescopic body.... Like I dived with y'all last year? I'm curious as I don't recall ever hearing any of the GUE/WKPP folks mention anything other than DUI previously. <br> <br> <dd>BD</font> <br> <br> <dd>The TLS 350 is similar to what Andy calls the "Ultra", <dd>his lightest material. I (and Todd & Allyson) have <dd>the "Extreme" which is the heavier grade that Andrew <dd>likes (but not the cordura, the heaviest). <dd>The biggest problem he mentioned with the DUI is that <dd>when you reach for your valves, the cut of the suit <dd>restricts your motion (same for the DUI <dd>undergarments). He pointed out that Andy puts in <dd>panels under the arms and in the crotch as opposed to <dd>the "rag doll" design of the sleeves on the DUI & most <dd>others. This gives better freedom of movement. He <dd>also said that he got Andy to redesign his diagonal <dd>zipper so it terminates above the waist and doesn't <dd>fold when you bend. He prefers that (the new DS-2) to <dd>the DS-3 that we have, due to flex of the zipper when <dd>doing a valve drill. <dd>BTW, Andrew is GUE, not (as far as I know) WKPP.<br> <br> <dd>Dave Dalton<br> <br> <dd>I have the DUI 450 and noticed the following things in the class- <dd>-When the backplate is in the proper position the telescope flaps stick out <dd>and catches your long hose and light cable. I was wearing my plate way too <dd>low and the belt was holding the "skirt" in and never noticed it before. And <dd>when you have the proper amount of air in the suit (i.e. practically none) <dd>the suit does not telescope. I know, I have one. <dd>-As JT mentioned the armpits are cut like they would be on a shirt or <dd>jacket, there is not enough material to allow reaching your valves, <dd>particularly with the thick cordura the 450 has. <dd>-With the backplate adjusted correctly DUI puts the exhaust valve in exactly <dd>the wrong position, it impedes the left strap from getting on/off your <dd>shoulder. <dd>I suppose that DUI could add the material to the armpits to allow reaching <dd>the valves, but this would mean dealing with DUI, and that would mean pretty <dd>much not having a drysuit for a period of several months. But I suppose when <dd>you are sending it back to get the various leaks fixed that DUI suits are <dd>plagued with, you can have the mods done then. <dd>From what I gathered the "dream suit" for DIR ocean divers would: <dd>-Be of a stretchable fabric which does not absorb water like crushed <dd>neoprene. <dd>-Cut with panels in the armpits and crotch to allow reaching the valves. <dd>-a diagonal self-donning zipper that does not go so low as to get stressed <dd>when you bend over. <dd>-Velcro seal bellows pockets on both sides cut so your hand can slip into <dd>them without the top folding in, equipped with grommets for a belay line. <dd>-An exhaust valve on the outside of the forearm rather than the <dd>upper-outside of the arm. <dd>-An inflate valve which has restricted air flow. This is for the event of a <dd>stuck DS inflater valve or regulator and to keep you from putting too much <dd>air in the DS to begin with. <dd>-Hard boots with reinforcement where the top of the fin pocket rubs. <dd>-P valve located on the leg more towards the inseam than sticking our front. <dd>-Thinsulate underwear with stretchable panels in the armpits and crotch <dd>(thinsulte does not stretch) or perhaps development of stretchable <dd>thinsulate. <dd>The goals are: <dd>-To be able to reach your valves with no air in the suit. <dd>-To be streamlined yet flexible. <dd>-To be easily purgable in the correct (horizontal) position. <dd>-To have large, easy access pockets on both sides. <dd>Currently this suit does not exist. The folks with the cheapest DUI 200 <dd>(i.e. The model without the telescope) seem to come closest to the ideal, <dd>near as I can tell, if you get the purge valve in the right place and the <dd>correct pockets installed. The Andy's have the crotch and armpit panels but <dd>you have to have a fair amount of drag-producing trilam material to allow <dd>you movement and their pockets suck. <dd>But if I were about to drop 2 large on a drysuit I would try to find one <dd>which incorporates as many of the above features as possible, with the <dd>number one priority of being able to reach your valves with no air in the <dd>suit. <dd>I may have missed something here or not interpreted correctly, gang please <dd>correct me where I am wrong. <dd>Jim Cobb <dd>Andrew is not a supporter of DUI DS, his preference is Dive Concepts in <dd>California and Andy's. <dd>I have a DUI CF200 with the telescoping body. I asked him about the DS and <dd>the only bad thing, which we all know, is the absorption of water and time <dd>to dry. It does not develop the folds as the Trilamines do. It is more <dd>durable then the type trilamines. He stated that two divers, same setup and <dd>scooters, the crashed neoprene will slowly walk away from the trilamine. <dd>Crashed Neoprene down side again is weight and time to dry especially if you <dd>are traveling. <dd>The Andy's suit is, DS2 with the Ultra or Cordura. There a modification to <dd>the DS2 zipper placement cutting higher on the body instead of the <dd>traditional lower on the right side. <dd>The important part to all this is movement or motion. As one raises the arm <dd>in both the undergarment and DS w/undergarment, the restriction of the <dd>movement is the issue under the arm pit. That is wear the stretch points and <dd>restriction in movement occurs. The ability to reach the valves. (See David <dd>Dalton comment on the panel - important to relieve the restrict issue.) <dd>Dive Concepts sound as if they are building a DS to order with important <dd>mod's and improvement. Several reference to them but more the Andy's. I <dd>think because he is on our coast and general neighborhood. <dd>David Widen<font color="#0000FF"> <dd>Andrew really liked the Andy's suits. The only thing Allyson and I didn't get on ours was the new diagonal zipper that Andrew got Andy to add. Ours are the DS3s with the zipper that goes straight across the front.</font> <font color="#0000FF"> <dd>The sleeve sort of telescopes over the seal so you don't put pressure on the wrist seal when you reach for your valves, etc. The material is heavier than the TLS 350, but it still is very flexible. It has a sort of panel built in under the arm that allows some stretch (same with the legs) and it comes stock with the SI Tek valves. It also has a nice slim boot (Andy calls it the tech boot) that fits perfectly into the XL Jetfins. There have been some complaints about the boots splitting after several hundred dives (Andrew does about 600 a year), but at least they fit the fins nicely. The suit is well made and has nice heavy duty latex seals. <dd>Todd Claggett<br> <br> <dd>I forgot to mention that the DS2 zipper that comes straight down is not the zipper that Andrew recommends. He has apparently gotten Andy to make one that curves at the bottom, sort of around the waist a bit instead of just straight. It takes the stress off of the zipper and makes it last longer.</font> <font color="#0000FF"> <dd>Todd<br> <br> </font> <dd>I believe the key was that Andy's suits have a little extra material under the armpit to allow proper mobility i.e., reaching your valves and in the crotch area for proper kicking. The medium grade tri-lam is also a little more durable than the tls 350. Finally, the new model that Andrew called the 5th D spec. has a zipper that is self donning much like the tls 350, but instead of the zipper ending at the hip, it ends midway between the hip and shoulder. This puts less wear on the zipper when you bend over. <dd>Tom Sawicki<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <dd>"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the water"<br> <br> <font color="#0000FF"> <dd>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more <dd> Web Site <a href="http://www.capt-jt.com/" eudora="autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</a> <dd>Email captjt@mi*.co*</font> </dl><br> <br> <br> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the water"<br> <br> <font color="#0000FF">Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more <br> Web Site <a href="http://www.capt-jt.com/" eudora="autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</a><br> Email captjt@mi*.co*<br> </font></u></blockquote></blockquote><br> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the water"<br> <br> <font color="#0000FF"><u>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more <br> Web Site <a href="http://www.capt-jt.com/" eudora="autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</a><br> Email captjt@mi*.co*<br> <br> </font></u></html> --=====================_18409647==_.ALT-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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