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This reminds me of a dive some of us from NE-DIR did last summer. We chartered a boat to do a dive on a U-boat. There was only the six of us and the boat owner. What amazed him was the fact that we were organized, were tech divers with dry suits, double tanks, deco bottles, etc., but at the same time, we didn't have whole lot of extra shit with us. He told us that he had a group of "technical divers" on the boat earlier that summer and they had at least twice the amount of "stuff" with them. By the end of the day, between the fact that we didn't complain or argue when he told us it wasn't safe to dive until the fog burned off (we were doing a dive in the middle of a major shipping channel) and the fact that we did our dives, with no fuss, bother, or "chinese fire drill" tactics, we were the easiest dive group he had ever taken out. (I think he was a convert to DIR.) This, by the way, was a group of DIR divers who had never met until that morning- a telling example of how "doing it right" is right. Wendell George Irvine wrote: > > Wendell, the fishing guys are the best. Why deal with a 10 knot boat stuffed > with strokes when you can ride out a 30 knots with real equipment, real > seamen, and have your own people on the boat instead of some fat slob with > his new Buddy Inspiration and shiny new IANTD card, or a Dave Sutton with > his homemade bullshit and big mouth, or a captain who dives and tells you he > will "cut your line if you run one on the wreck", as well as a slew of dive > shop savants and anointed "experts". > > I can't believe that given the upscale nature of the NE crowd ( other than > the freeloading boat monkeys and dive instructors), you guys can't put > together a few first class operations. > > I think if you want to see the real issues in what happened, see Mike Kane's > post and Steve Belinda's post. I don't see how a release can get you past > that. If that case gets heard at all, I think you will see either a huge > settlement or a win, and if it does, I just hope they put some conditions in > there that preclude these morons from continuing to do the same thing. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wendell Grogan [mailto:wgrogan@dc*.ne*] > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 3:34 PM > To: vbtech@ci*.co* > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com > Subject: Re: Diver Responsibility > > OK, I'm going to wade in here for a second. JT and others are well > aware of my qualifications, and lack thereof to comment on things > related to diving. On the other hand, for over a quarter of a century, > I have been dealing with the whole question of personal choice, > qualification to make life altering decisions, etc. on a daily basis. I > have seen more people suffer and sometimes die because of their bad > choices than any dive boat captain. I have also been sued (never > successfully) because people made bad decisions and suffered because of > them. > Lesson 1- the first casualty of litigation is truth, the second is > reality testing. > Lesson 2- no matter how careful you are to explain, consent, conjoal, > beg, or plead with someone regarding their choices- if they get hurt you > can get sued, if you cost them the 10 cents when they don't get to do > what they want, you can get sued. > Conclusion- Personally, I don't expect anything out of a dive boat > operator than a safe boat trip out to the dive site and back, for them > to be there when I get back to the surface and have a way for me to get > onto the boat, and for them to have a way of getting help if I get > hurt. This is the way things were 30 years ago when divers paid fishing > boat operators to take them out the wrecks during the off season with > the promise that they would be paid if they got to the site. I think > that based on the current climate, that is what we should go back to. > Wendell > > Capt JT wrote: > > > > Capt. Steve > > You have been around a long time, it is not my intention to totally > > smash your dick in front of everyone, so I will also smash mine at the > > same time as I do yours. > > > > We both have had the unfortunate trips were divers have lost their > > life. For me the hard one was a friend name Tai Wilkerson. When his > > body popped to the surface we had no idea what had happen. Before the > > stand by diver could get his drysuit zipped and his fins on, I had > > already jumped off the bow of the boat with a line in my hand, the > > water was 41 degrees, I had nothing on but sweat pants. It was a hard > > task for me to hold on to him as they pulled the rope with me while > > holding on to him, all kinds of instructions from the boat were being > > yelled, I did all I could. I could hardly hear them. Not even once was > > I able to hold his head up and still hold onto the line that pulled us > > up to the boat during the rescue attempt. I'm sure I was feeling the > > effects of hypothermia, but I was able to hang on long enough to get > > him to the boat and on the deck for CPR. I am not a very strong > > surface swimmer. At that time I was also very lean and had been going > > to the gym. Once I got on some dry cloths, I put myself in the > > rotation to preform CPR. For nearly 2 hrs we did this before the CG > > arrived. Once they took him the handful that was doing CPR was totally > > drained. Tai was dead....... His death, the accident, and the lawsuit > > are well documented in the archives. The dropping of that lawsuit can > > be seen on my site, it should never have been filed from the start. > > Personally I thought everyone did all they could, those that did do > > CPR for that long were in my mind heros, but the family, their lawyer, > > and even some on this list chose to call us something else. > > > > Now its your turn, please tell me why you chose to let Tony Mafatone > > dive that rig off your boat and die, who jumped in and pulled him to > > the boat, did they hold his head up, what was the crew on the boat > > yelling, do you even know. It is well known that a huge debate was > > going on this list the days before and the day he died about that rig > > he was wearing, I called it the death rig. How come every diver who > > saw him dive said he would die in that rig and you let him do it on > > your boat, why couldn't you see what everyone else could. Please > > explain yourself if you can...... > > > > You have a beef with the boat "Seeker", he is your main reason for > > reducing your Doria trips, he was taking your business away, that is > > the ax to grind for you and the reason you are saying what you are. > > Read what you yourself just wrote: > > > > > ps: the captain and crew of any dive boat has the responsability and > > > right to stop any diver from entering the water for any reason they > > > see fit, from improper attutidude to you dont belong here and all > > > the other reason in between, and you dont get any money refunded. > > > captain steve bielenda > > > > At 11:44 AM 2/9/02 -0500, Wahoodiver@ao*.co* wrote: > > > > > Capt. Jt; > > > Based on the entire CG report about 75 pages long my question to you > > > is; > > > How did Murley die, The CG report stated he drown at the surface, > > > what has a waiver have to do with the situation, Murley can't waive > > > someone else negligence.only his own. When someone in trouble at the > > > surface screaming and thrashing with two people assisting him, how > > > and why did he drown? One of the deck people watching, told the > > > rescuer "his head is underwater" ????????????? > > > What has a wavier to do with this situtation? > > > ps: the captain and crew of any dive boat has the responsability and > > > right to stop any diver from entering the water for any reason they > > > see fit, from improper attutidude to you dont belong here and all > > > the other reason in between, and you dont get any money refunded. > > > captain steve bielenda > > > > > > In a message dated 2/8/2002 4:45:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > > Bakalite@ba*.co* writes: > > > > > > > > >> Subj:Re: Diver Responsibility > > >> Date:2/8/2002 4:45:22 PM Eastern Standard Time > > >> From:Bakalite@ba*.co* > > >> To:vbtech@ci*.co*, FLTechDiver@mikey.net, EANX@ao*.co* > > >> CC:techdiver@aquanaut.com > > >> Sent from the Internet > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> John, I don't think you are being naive. The people who took this > > >> > > >> guy diving deserve everything they get, but it is important that > > >> dive > > >> operators have some protection from lawsuits, and that is usually > > >> where the waiver comes in. If you buy a beer because you saw in > > >> the > > >> commercials that all the guys who drink beer get the girls, but > > >> then > > >> instead of getting girls you become a drunk, do you think you > > >> should > > >> be able to sue the beer company? At some point people need to > > >> take > > >> responsibility for themselves, because if the law tries to do it > > >> we > > >> are all going to get screwed. > > >> > > >> > > >> John Mason Jr"." wrote: > > >> ~ > > >> >JT, > > >> >I agree Christopher Murley made the decision to dive signed the > > >> waivers and > > >> >went diving, all his choice. I agree that you should be prepared > > >> for dying. > > >> >You are also correct about families wanting to blame someone. > > >> Personally I > > >> >think you signed, your responsibility, end of story. But in this > > >> case it > > >> >seems that people had the attitude of he signed the waiver cash > > >> the check, > > >> >instead of you don't belong here waiver or not. This may be a > > >> little naive, > > >> >it is just my opinion. > > >> > > > >> >John > > >> >----- Original Message ----- > > >> >From: "Capt JT" <captjt@mi*.co*> > > >> >To: <vbtech@ci*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; > > >> ><vbtech@ci*.co*>; <EANX@ao*.co*> > > >> >Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > >> >Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:59 PM > > >> >Subject: Re: Diver Responsibility > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >> John, have you ever seen a Doria wavier from the Seeker? The > > >> one I have > > >> >> states " I have been given the opportunity to review this > > >> document with > > >> >> both my family and legal counsel." that is initialed and > > >> notarized long > > >> >> before you ever get on the boat. > > >> >> > > >> >> We as humans will die as part of living, one must face the > > >> fact that he or > > >> >> she will someday die. Nothing will change this, that is > > >> reality. That is > > >> >> why we make wills and prepare of families for this event. > > >> Those who do > > >> >not > > >> >> accept this fact will surely leave their family in debt and > > >> screwed. > > >> >> > > >> >> Often families want to blame someone else for this poor > > >> planning and to > > >> >> relieve the burden and guilt they feel for not being more > > >> involved in the > > >> >> deceased persons life. Clearly, Lawyers have different > > >> reasons for > > >> >> pursuing these cases and justice has nothing to do with it. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Mason Jr"." wrote: > > >> >> >Curt, > > >> >> >I agree that personal responsibility is the key. However in > > >> this case I > > >> >> >think some folks should have dissuaded this gentleman from > > >> doing this > > >> >kind > > >> >> >of diving instead of enabling it. It has a bit of > > >> moral/ethical > > >> >messiness > > >> >> >to accept money from someone who by all accounts should not > > >> be there just > > >> >> >because he signed a waiver. > > >> >> > > > >> >> >John Mason > > >> >> >----- Original Message ----- > > >> >> >From: <EANX@ao*.co*> > > >> >> >To: <dell@di*.co*>; <trimix@ho*.co*>; > > >> <aocfishman@ho*.co*>; > > >> >> ><FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; <vbtech@ci*.co*> > > >> >> >Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > >> >> >Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 2:14 PM > > >> >> >Subject: Diver Responsibility > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Again, another case of family members trying to make an > > >> excuse for a > > >> >love > > >> >> >one > > >> >> > > lost. > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > If you sign a waiver saying you accepts the risk involved > > >> then it > > >> >should > > >> >> >be > > >> >> > > written in stone. All we need is one case being lost > > >> because of some > > >> >> >crafty > > >> >> > > (crooked) lawyer and all our diving could go to pot. > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > Divers and their families need to start taking > > >> responsibility for what > > >> >> >ever > > >> >> > > they get themselves involved with. If not, then maybe > > >> they should > > >> >stay > > >> >> >home > > >> >> > > in bed, but then again they might sue the mattress company > > >> for bed > > >> >sores. > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > This includes all divers, no matter their physical > > >> fitness. > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > Curt Bowen > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > Publisher Advanced Diver Magazine > > >> >> > > 941-751-2360 Office > > >> >> > > www.advanceddivermagazine.com > > >> >> > > AdvDvrMag@ao*.co* > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > Mailing address > > >> >> > > Advanced Diver Magazine > > >> >> > > 3115 48th Ave. Dr. East > > >> >> > > Bradenton, FL 34203 USA > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > Rule of Exploration > > >> >> > > "Publish or Perish" > > >> > > > > > > >> ============================================================ > > >> >> > > To contact the list administrator, email > > >> >> > > Mike Rodriguez at mikey@mi*.ne* > > >> >> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a message to: > > >> >> > > listserv@mi*.ne* > > >> >> > > and in the *BODY* of the message type: > > >> >> > > unsubscribe FLTechDiver > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> ><< Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to > > >> >VBTech-request@ci*.= > > >> >> >com >> > > >> >> > > >> >> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have > > >> to get in > > >> >the > > >> >> water" > > >> >> > > >> >> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more > > >> >> Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ > > >> >> Email captjt@mi*.co* > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> << Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to > > >> >VBTech-request@ci*.= > > >> >> com >> > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ><< Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to > > >> VBTech-request@ci*.= > > >> >com >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Paul B. > > >> -- > > >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > > >> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > > >> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > > > "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get > > in the water" > > > > Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more > > Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ > > Email captjt@mi*.co* > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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