Hi Dave:

I'm not advocating lawsuits.  I'm all for personal responsibility.

I'm saying that including potential deaths as a normal part of a dive plan
is unacceptable.  I'm also saying that while I believe everyone is
responsible for themselves, facilitating someones suicidal behavior is
wrong.  I have no interest in policing the dive community but I would not
knowingly facilitate someone who is clearly in beyond where he belongs.
That guy is dead due to his own bad judgement.  No one needed to help him
along.  For me it is more ethics than it is law.

If you are mad at someone and want to kill them and I know it, and still
sell you a gun, like it or not I am culpable.  It doesn't matter that I was
no where around when you did it.

Regards.

Joe






----- Original Message -----
From: David B. Widen <dwiden@co*.ne*>
To: 'Joe' <joe@po*.co*>; 'Tom Mount' <tom.mount@ia*.co*>; 'Dell
Motes' <dell@di*.co*>; 'chris cole' <trimix@ho*.co*>;
<aocfishman@ho*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; <vbtech@ci*.co*>;
'Capt JT' <captjt@mi*.co*>
Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: (another) diver death lawsuit


> Joe
>
> Life in general has risks involved. Every activity you partake in has
risk.
> There are always things one can do that increase or decrease those risks.
> Those risk can be physical, emotional, or psychological. If you are
> unwilling to deal and manage the risk then one needs to stay that hole
safe
> and sound as the world goes by. JT's comment about planning is just one of
> those action to reduce risk. Diet, fitness (physical & mental),
experience,
> practice, buddy, buddy plan, gas plan, type of gas, etc. are just a few
> other that also help.
>
> I am a firm believer that each and everyone one of us is responsible to
> ourselves and family. Last time I checked, very Technical Diver (Cave,
> wreck, etc.) had to be at least 18 years old. That qualifies them as a
legal
> adult and legally responsible. First to themselves and then others.
>
> The legal attacks on the boat, dive buddy, captain, instructor,  the
> assistant to instructor, person filling the tanks, the manufacturer, etc
is
> a hole in our legal system. Take you responsibility away and give to
someone
> else. Let someone else make the decision for you and the bitch that
someone
> else in in control. Well you give it away.
>
> If this BS keeps up, Uncle will be in control. Yes he was fat, no he
should
> not have been making the dive. These are all other peoples opinion
(educated
> or not). The final choice was his. He did not plan well. He did not listen
> all the thing other people probably told him. He did not listen to the
words
> on these lists. He pay the ultimate price. We as a sport will also suffer
as
> the legal beagle do their dance, the Fed & CG get deeper into our affairs.
>
> Where was his buddy?
>
> The suit is wrong and the dollar figure is out of this world.
>
> The lawyers are there to make a living just like everyone else in what
ever
> their profession or discipline are.
>
> David
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FLTechDiver-owner@mikey.net [mailto:FLTechDiver-owner@mikey.net]On
> Behalf Of Joe
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:05 PM
> To: Tom Mount; Dell Motes; chris cole; aocfishman@ho*.co*;
> FLTechDiver@mikey.net; vbtech@ci*.co*; Capt JT
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: Re: (another) diver death lawsuit
>
>
> Hi JT:
>
> Knowing it CAN happen is quite a bit different from thinking it WILL
happen.
> If I think something bad WILL happen, I don't do the dive.  If you expect
a
> bad outcome and you still proceed, it is far more likely to occur.  If you
> recognize the risk and only proceed after doing that which is necessary to
> avoid or minimize the risk it is far less likely to occur.  IE:  We all
> recognize that a regulator can fail.  That's why we carry two.  I never
> expect that my regulator WILL fail.  Only that it CAN fail.  If I have a
> regulator that is questionable, I don't proceed thinking that its OK
because
> I have a spare.
>
> If you execute a dive that has a high risk you must respect and recognize
> the risk but you must also be confident that you can deal with and
overcome
> that risk.  If you were not confident that you could proceed safely in
spite
> of the risk you should go bowling that day.
>
> I think we are saying the same thing only wording it differently.
>
> Regards.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Capt JT <captjt@mi*.co*>
> To: Joe <joe@po*.co*>; Tom Mount <tom.mount@ia*.co*>; Dell
Motes
> <dell@di*.co*>; chris cole <trimix@ho*.co*>;
> <aocfishman@ho*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>;
<vbtech@ci*.co*>
> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 2:36 PM
> Subject: Re: (another) diver death lawsuit
>
>
> > At 03:09 PM 2/7/02 -0800, Joe wrote:
> >
> > >If you think or expect something bad to happen it will.
> >
> > Not true, if you always expect something to happen or think there is the
> > possibility that it could happen or it has a high risk factor, then you
> > will be prepare to handle that event should it in fact DO HAPPEN. I
think
> > we call it planning.......
> >
> >
> > >Regards.
> > >
> > >Joe
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: Tom Mount <tom.mount@ia*.co*>
> > >To: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>; chris cole <trimix@ho*.co*>;
> > ><aocfishman@ho*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>;
> <vbtech@ci*.co*>
> > >Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > >Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:42 AM
> > >Subject: Re: (another) diver death lawsuit
> > >
> > >
> > > > Interesting
> > > >
> > > > But in my early military days I learned to accept that death is a
> > > > possibility, that may even become a probability if the risk of the
> > >activity
> > > > is high enough.
> > > >
> > > > However it is never a certainty, in my philosophy I accept the fact
> that I
> > > > can die doing any activity I pursue (including driving to and from
> work)
> > >So
> > > > I accept the possibility of dying and thus plan so that the
> possibility or
> > > > even probability does not become a certainty. I think that anytime
> someone
> > > > breathes underwater they should accept there is possibility of dying
> due
> > >to
> > > > such things as bumping your head in the swimming pool. that keeps us
> from
> > > > making the mistakes that may lead to death from behaviors people who
> do
> > >not
> > > > realize that possibility exist would take. I think many divers die
> because
> > > > they do not accept the possibility that you can die doing just bout
> > >anything
> > > > we do in life.
> > > >
> > > > I think my philosophy on this issue has saved my life on numerous
> times,
> > >in
> > > > military, in diving , climbing, and in many other of my activities
> even
> > > > martial arts. Awareness of a risk  is the key to avoiding the
> occurrence.
> > > > Just my thoughts
> > > >
> > > > I do accept the risk and I do enjoy the activity
> > > >
> > > > Tom Mount
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Dell Motes" <dell@di*.co*>
> > > > To: "chris cole" <trimix@ho*.co*>; <aocfishman@ho*.co*>;
> > > > <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; <vbtech@ci*.co*>
> > > > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 12:47 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: (another) diver death lawsuit
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hey there Chris,
> > > > > I, for one, was never taught that death was a real possibility. I
> would
> > > > find
> > > > > it un-acceptable as being on my list of possible occurences to
> prepare
> > >for
> > > > > during a dive.
> > > > > After many years of experience, it continues to be un-acceptable
to
> me.
> > > > > Several years ago, more than one friend told me of this being
stated
> > > > during
> > > > > a particular project. Something to the effect that, "this is so
> risky,
> > > > that
> > > > > odds are someone will not survive".
> > > > > That works to sell movies, but anyone that accepts that as normal
> SOP is
> > > > not
> > > > > on the same page as I am. That is absolutely ludicrus to continue
> > >planning
> > > > > death as a factor in logistics, or any undertaking for that
matter.
> > > > > It has and will continue to happen, but I do not consider it
> acceptable
> > >at
> > > > > any level of play.
> > > > > Maybe I could be considered a coward by some, but I don't
subscribe
> to
> > >the
> > > > > daredevil stuff.
> > > > > I plan to make it home when I 'm done, and I don't mind telling
> anybody
> > > > I'm
> > > > > diving with what they need to hear in order for me to meet my
goals.
> > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > Dell Motes
> > > > > Research & Development
> > > > > Dive Rite
> > > > > 117 West Washington Street
> > > > > Lake City, Florida 32055
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "chris cole" <trimix@ho*.co*>
> > > > > To: <aocfishman@ho*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>;
> > > > > <vbtech@ci*.co*>
> > > > > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:17 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: (another) diver death lawsuit
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > FOR WHAT ITS WORTH!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tec Diving is an inherently dangerous sport in which we all were
> > >taught
> > > > > that
> > > > > > DEATH is a real possibility. It should not be up to a dive boat
to
> > >play
> > > > > > mother to any level of diver and certainly not to a trained Tec
> diver.
> > > > > Yes,
> > > > > > the instructor should accept some responsibility for certifying
a
> > >person
> > > > > > that is obviously out of shape. I am an IT for IANTD and have
had
> > > > several
> > > > > > occasions where overweight, people have come to me for Tec
> training, I
> > > > am
> > > > > > very hard on my students, both physically and mentally, the joke
> is
> > >that
> > > > > if
> > > > > > you survive my classes that there isn't much that you have to
> worry
> > > > about
> > > > >
> > > > > > later. Yes, I am prejudice against those I view to be not fit
for
> > > > diving.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > am even harder on them.
> > > > > > If you are over weight, not medically fit, or not
psychologically
> fit
> > > > than
> > > > > > do us all a favor. DON'T DIVE! I, quite frankly don't care if
you
> kill
> > > > > > yourself, but you endanger all those who dive with you as well
as
> the
> > > > > > freedom we have from governmental intervention.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                                        Chris Cole
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
_________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> > > > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
> > > > > >
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> > >
> > >--
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> >
> > "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in
> the
> > water"
> >
> > Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
> >   Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
> > Email     captjt@mi*.co*
> >
> >
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