Aloha George,

I believe you're missing my point(s) which are (briefly): 1) I'm not the 
most knowledgeable or experienced diver on the list; 2) I think GUE is a 
very good agency and applaud it's high training standards, and; 3) I 
don't hate you and am not your enemy.

>Dave, this makes your tenth post to techdiver. Of the ten, eight are attacks
>on me, two just driveling nonsense. In those posts, you use lies, innuendo,
>rumor and bullshit to try to discredit Jarrod, me and the organizations we
>have put together.

Didn't know I'd made that many posts -- am happy to take your word for 
it. (BTW, the post you answered with an insult was on the Cavers list.) 
Most posts simply criticize your communication style and obvious contempt 
for all divers outside your circle of friends. And please, don't confuse 
honest criticism with personal attacks.

As far as JJ is concerned, I have the utmost respect for both him and his 
accomplishments. More to the point, this is the first time JJ has been 
mentioned -- by you. Specifically, I have not criticized any person or 
agency other than you -- and I have only criticized your need to dominate 
and "win" every discussion on every email list even if you must resort to 
unwarranted slurs and character assassinations and mindless cursing. Not 
mention faulty logic or putting words in your opponent's mouth.  ;>)   

>You go on to recommend dive instructors to innocent people that are among
>the least attractive of the choices out there. I would be glad to publicly
>explain why in detail , if you want to contest that with me.

Other people who have trained with the instructors I mentioned can decide 
for themselves if those posts are "nonsense". As far as "innocent" people 
are concerned, I count myself among them -- I trained with members of 
that group and derive no benefit, financial or otherwise, for 
recommending the instructors I listed. To be perfectly frank, I found 
that all of the instructors I mentioned were extremely interested in my 
safety and well-being. 

Am I qualified to conduct dives similar to yours at Wakulla? No. But the 
point of NSS-CDS and NACD cavern, intro cave, apprentice cave and full 
cave training was to make me a safe basic cave diver -- the same goal as 
GUE's Cave 1 and Cave 2 training regimen. Do you take Cave 2 graduates on 
your deep Wakulla dives without any additional training or experience?

If you feel the need to explain why these instructors are "the least 
attractive of the choices out there", please feel free to do so. I have 
no objection to more information being made available about the quality 
of instruction available to divers -- the more the better in fact. 
However, I do ask two things: 1) Be objective and don't use pejorative 
language; and 2) send your criticism of each man to him in a private 
email as well as posting it to the list(s). I am interested in a 
discussion on the merits, not name calling, and believe that a man has a 
right to defend his ideas in a fair argument.

BTW, am planning to get technical training from GUE in the near future -- 
have heard many good things about Tyler Moon. Or should I reject Tyler 
out-of-hand merely because a few people don't care for GUE and DIR (or 
you)?

>I have produced more valuable and useful information than any combination of
>people or agencies. I produce it, I give it out freely, I put it on my
>website and on Jarrod's web site, and most people know they can call me any
>time to get ideas or information. You don't see any of my dive partners on
>here. Why? Because they don't want what I get by trying to pass on
>information. Your loss. JJ has his agency and web site, but you can't get
>him out here to be lied about and criticized with bullshit from anonymous
>hotmail accounts or by novice cave divers like you who pass on rumors from
>Bill Rennaker and others of the same ilk.

That's the point of my criticism -- you spend about 90 percent of your 
bandwidth belittling people with names like "moron", "idiot" and "trailer 
trash", calling them liars, and talking about how much "they" all hate 
you. Well, put it this way, when you talk or write about people like that 
I can see where it would do damn little to endear you to them. As I've 
said before, you are your own worst enemy. As for your paranoia, have you 
had it examined by a competent medical professional yet?

If you have indeed produced "more valuable and useful information than 
any combination of people or agencies" (which is BTW, a pretty tall 
statement) please post relevant information to the list when the subject 
comes up. As to why your dive partners don't post on the lists -- I don't 
know and can't speak for someone else in any case. Besides, we aren't 
talking about them, we're discussing your contemptuous attitude and 
pejorative words toward divers outside your circle of friends.

With regards to anonymous criticism, again I don't know and can't speak 
for other people, but you spell my name Dave Sams. As far as Bill is 
concerned, I haven't spoken or written to him in over a year -- nothing 
any other instructor or diver I know has said or written has influenced 
my criticisms of you. I am only criticizing your attitude and words as 
they appear on Techdiver (and now Caver) posts. Again, I believe your 
paranoia is getting the better of you. 

>You and the group you were "trained" by see that quite differently. Real
>information that works and makes sense is s huge threat to these people
>because they are doing things quite differently, and feel the need to defend
>that. The dive instructors who are not equipped with what I know or my
>experience level hate it when a student or anyone else comes back to them
>and says, "you told me this, but George says that".

Now, George, I'm not quite sure I follow you here. Most of the people I 
know share information quite readily regardless of the source -- we all 
want to stay alive. On the other hand, there is always some tension 
between the people who develop new techniques and skills and those who 
are more conservative and "have always done it this way". That's simply 
human nature. But (and this is a big but), in the continuing dialog 
between these two groups, little is gained and much lost when the 
arguments devolve from rational to personal.

For example, take Sheck Exely's rule of thirds for air management. Even 
though it's now commonly accepted within the cave diving community, how 
long did that take? Would it have benefited the thirds rule (and Exely) 
to have personally attacked anyone and everyone who did not immediately 
adopt his new technique?

The point here is that you might want to reconsider how your 
communications techniques are affecting the new information, techniques 
and skills you want others to consider and adopt as a better way of doing 
things.

>They hate me and justify it by saying I am not "nice" to them, but they hate
>Jarrod because by way of comparison and his mere existence, he makes them
>all look pretty lame.

Faulty logic here George -- because you aren't nice to them, they dislike 
you. Basically you're reversing cause and effect. With regard to the 
validity of that logical relationship, how should I feel about you when 
the first time I post to a list, and without having ever met me, you 1) 
call me names, 2) malign people I do know, and 3) belittle and curse me?

As far as how others feel about JJ, again I can't speak for anyone else, 
but he has my respect. Again, I urge you to think about who "they" are -- 
classically that's an indication of paranoia and considerable cause for 
concern, or might you have given more than a few people good reason to 
dislike you?.

>The end result is that people like you and your friends produce nothing but
>crap, and you attack me on a personal level with made up bullshit because
>none of you can produce an argument against what I am saying or in support
>of what they do and teach that is anything but obvious nonsense.

Sorry George, I haven't attacked you, merely criticized your public 
writings on Techdiver and Cavers and, unfortunately, it isn't necessary 
to make anything up. The problem is, most of the time you aren't 
discussing or arguing substantive topics, you're attacking us over little 
or nothing and then ranting about how much we hate you.   

>I "infest" this list with information when I am not fighting off the likes
>of you. You , on the other hand, have nothing for anyone but your lack of
>knowledge and experience combined with an indoctrination in things that
>don't work, and an full load of bullshit told to you by the losers out
>there.

So post your information and be done with it. Answer direct questions and 
resist all temptation to rant at people. Realize that not everyone will 
agree with you immediately (or even ever). Anyway, who cares what 
"weenie" divers think. The important thing is that your information has 
been made available to those of us who want it. And I do want it. But 
your opinion, isn't important -- I don't really care what you think about 
us "trailer trash losers."

Dave
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