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--part1_a2.1f11ea10.2971ac31_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en I have never done sidemount, so I can't speak to that, but I can say that=20 I've seen a number of these discussions where one group or individual loudly= =20 says that DIR will not work in their environment, only to finally come to th= e=20 conclusion that there is no reason it won't. Not only that, but it probably= =20 will streamline, simplify, and make safer what is done. I have a feeling if those that insist that DIR will not work in this=20 environment truly have an idea of what DIR means, then they would adopt it,=20 and find that it works better than their current approach. Change is often=20 difficult to accept. DIR would look at changes to equipment configuration,=20 teamwork, and attitude. A first step is admitting that there is room for=20 improvement in what is currently being done. Jan S. In a message dated 1/11/02 10:20:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 diverdominic@ho*.co* writes: > I have just one question: > Why do you keep saying "You"? I'm not a cave diver, here or anywhere else.= =20 > I=20 > thought the way I referred to the CDG as "them" rather than "us" would hav= e=20 >=20 > made that clear. > I came across the article I posted a while ago, and found it an interestin= g=20 >=20 > one. It's the only place I've come across that doesn't just say "Our=20 > approach is just as good as DIR" but actually goes so far as to say "DIR=20 > wouldn't work here." And having seen some of the photos in their gallery=20 > page, such as=20 > http://www.cavedivinggroup.org.uk/images/Photos/BBC/pages/Gary_gif.htm I=20 > found it hard to refute their argument that backmounts wouldn't work, or=20 > that it would be very hard to pass a reg to someone behind you in some of=20 > the caves they dive in. > If you'd like to clarify how you would/do get through such narrow=20 > passageways with standard DIR kit, I'd like to hear it. Purely out of=20 > academic interest, since I have no interest in diving in easy or difficult= =20 > cave systems. > Simon asked about helmets in cave diving. I posted a link to an article by= =20 > some cave divers that says why they use them. He was free to read it and=20 > either think "Hey, good idea" or "What a bunch of garbage", and that would= =20 > have been the end of it. But then you went and said "Just for laughs, tell= =20 > us all why the helmets are used". I did so. I'm sorry to hear you didn't=20 > get=20 > the laughs you wanted. > Regards > Dominic >=20 > >From: "George Irvine" <girvine@be*.ne*> > >Reply-To: <trey@ne*.co*> > >To: "Dominic Humphries" <diverdominic@ho*.co*>,=20 > ><techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >Subject: RE: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? > >Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 06:12:53 -0500 > > > >This is complete crap. You guys are so far off it is ridiculous - anythin= g > >to support your won flagrant stupidity. You come on over here to=20 > >Tallahassee > >and tell me how "big, warm and easy access" Leon Sinks and the rest of ou= r > >systems are. You see videos we make in spring tunnels that feed conduit > >caves. I know you take comfort in trying to say it looks easy to mask the > >clown act that you guys perform, but the fact is we make it look easy and > >none of you could get to first base in any cave relative to us using your > >methods. Ask your big time British moron buddies who joined the USDCT and > >tried to take us on in Wakulla with their British Bullshit methods,=20 > helmets > >and all. If it is so big warm and easy, why did they use helmets? Because > >they are morons. They spent 90 days trying to get to where I send an=20 > >advance > >team to drop bottles and scooters, and missed more than half the cave, an= d > >took twice as long to go any distance they went. 90 days to get to where=20 > JJ > >and I get in 90 minutes. Tell me about British cave diving so I can get a= n > >even bigger laugh. I guess limestone is different in the UK, water is > >different there, and all of the other things are different to account for > >the Mondo Bizzaro methods you ignoramuses use to do everything. > > > >Keep making excuses for your incompetent stupidity. I love the part about > >"bashing your head". That fits for most of you guys because you have zero > >technique or diving ability, have the worst gear mess possible, and=20 > operate > >on pure ego and macho bravado trying to prove something, but only proving > >how ridiculous your methods are. > > > >Helmets are for dry caving to keep things from falling on your head, not=20 > >for > >keeping your head from hitting things. > > > >Only the worst moron would then put lights on the helmet or be stupid=20 > >enough > >to store anything on the helmet. That is just beyond the pale stupid, but > >standard stroke practice. > > > >You people have no system for anything other than "every man for himself"= , > >and that is well documented, and you can not tell me otherwise. You have > >contributed nothing but comedy to the sport, and you never will doing it > >your way. At the same time, you make up bullshit about us and excuses why > >you can not do things that we do in our sleep. > > > >Tell me all about you "systems" for cave diving now and why they are > >anything but bullshit. I notice that you guys always mention the WKPP in > >every argument against the obvious and try to badmouth it. Come on over=20 > >here > >like Stanton and his idiot pal Jason did, bring your best and brightest, > >and let me make an ass out of you in spades , too. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Dominic Humphries [mailto:diverdominic@ho*.co*] > >Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 8:21 AM > >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > >Subject: RE: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? > > > > > >I didn't realise following a link was so hard. Still, the article in > >question says: > >Next, in the UK, we always wear helmets! We guarantee you that your head > >gets bashed on the roof of the cave at least once during a dive, and in=20 > >some > >of the smaller sumps, it will be constantly grinding against the rock=20 > roof. > > > >For a time-saver, here's the whole article: > >Many people have now taken "cavern-diving" or "cave-diving" courses, and > >dived in the warm, clear caves of such places as Mexico, Florida, Dordogn= e=20 >=20 > >& > >Majorca. These areas provide easy, interesting and pleasurable cave=20 > diving. > >There are significant differences between those areas, and the UK. > >Here are some things that we would tell anyone thinking of going=20 > >cave-diving > >in the UK - things we think they should know... > >Firstly, only a small proportion of the British Isles consists of the > >limestone in which caves most commonly occur. Thus there are a very=20 > limited > >number of cave-diving sites, and of these, only a handful have reasonably > >easy physical access combined with roomy underwater passages and=20 > occasional > >'good' (ie. more than 2 metres) visibility. Most of these would require=20 > you > >to be a fully-fledged caver yourself, and you would need to have the > >necessary ropes & ladders and know how to use them safely (including > >competence in Single Rope Techniques - abseiling & prussiking). As some o= f > >the caves can be three miles from the road, several hundred feet deep,=20 > with > >lengthy crawls and other obstacles, you would need to be able to muster a > >team of cavers to carry your kit to the dive site. And of course you woul= d > >need to know where the cave entrance is! > >Virtually all cave-diving sites are on private land. This means that > >visitors must get the permission of the landowner before they visit. Some > >landowners have installed physical barriers (eg. locked gates) to prevent > >access, and may treat trespassers on their land to a close-up view of the > >wrong end of a 12-bore! At some sites it may be that the landowner does=20 > not > >care if people want to visit the cave (or indeed, they might prefer not t= o > >know of such a visit) but most of them just like to be asked nicely for > >permission to visit the caves. Ignoring such etiquette may result in the > >cave being closed permanently - guaranteeing you the hostility of all the > >cave divers in the UK! > >Realistically, the only way to find out about the current access > >arrangements, would be to ask local active members of the CDG. They will > >also have knowledge & experience of the effects of the weather on the cav= e > >in question, and whether the cave will be in flood, have good diving > >conditions, what kind of visibility could be expected and what state the > >guidelines are in, etc. > >Most cave diving in the UK is carried out with the aim of exploring new > >cave. Dives for the purpose of training/ testing of techniques & ancillar= y > >equipment are also carried out. Occasionally, when conditions allow it, a > >few divers will do tourist/ pleasure dives. The dives recorded in the Cav= e > >Diving Group Newsletter reflect this pattern. > >Most exploration is carried out by an individual or small group of divers > >working together on a specific project, usually after researching geology= / > >hydrology, etc. and previous dives done at the site - via the relevant=20 > Sump > >Index, CDG Newsletters & caving club journals. The divers will=20 > subsequently > >publish their findings in the CDG Newsletter, or send them to its Editor=20 > >for > >his =E2=80=98secret file=E2=80=99 (to be published at a later, more suita= ble date) in=20 > order > >to share these with the caving community at large. It is also expected=20 > that > >a survey (plan & section) of any new discovery should be published with=20 > the > >report in the CDG Newsletter. Etiquette dictates that other divers will=20 > not > >'pirate' someone else's project while work continues. It is therefore the > >individual's responsibility to let it be known that a project is taking > >place, and, equally, when work is complete, to let people know that it's > >'open season' again at the site in question. > >For the safety and convenience of others, any diver who finds the lines i= n > >the sump in a different condition to those previously published, should > >notify the changes to the Editor for inclusion in the Newsletter. > >Now let=E2=80=99s look at gear & techniques. Many divers will have come a= cross the > >'Hogarthian'/ 'Doing It Right' philosophies promoted by the WKPP, GUE, > >etc..... No argument - these principles are perfect for the large, deep, > >easy-access springs, and the open water sites they dive. The value of the > >techniques and gear configuration is reflected in the amazing exploration= s > >they have carried out with few accidents. As the old saying goes - the=20 > >proof > >of the pudding.... > >Sadly, such gear configuration and techniques cannot be used in British=20 > >cave > >diving. Let us explain why... > >For a start, most sites in the UK are inaccessible to divers using > >back-mounted bottles - quite simply, you would not fit through the cave > >passages. Thus the long hose/ short hose debate, and where to put one=E2= =80=99s > >light, etc. does not arise. And you can leave the scooters at home! Here > >streamlining is vital, and side-mounted tanks are de rigeur. > >Although the water temperature is always cold (7 Celsius tops, 4 Celsius > >normal), wetsuits are still commonly worn in many sumps. The bulk and > >restricted movement of the drysuit for caving, and the likelihood of > >overheating and damage, precludes its use in all but the easiest access > >sites. Exceptions are the long deep sumps, a long way into a cave, when > >ordinary caving gear is worn to get to dive site, with the drysuit being > >carried and put on once the sump has been reached. > >The streams in the caves are often heavily peat stained, and carry > >substantial amounts of silt and organic debris - thus visibility of one t= o > >two metres is considered quite reasonable/ normal, and three to four=20 > metres > >plus is excellent (but sadly very rare). Higher water flow rates also mea= n > >more wear and tear on the line, so 4mm thick is considered a minimum and=20 > >6mm > >is not uncommon. We have even put half inch galvanised steel chain in one > >cave, as the floods just kept eating 11mm caving rope! Consequently=20 > thicker > >line means that line reels need to be fairly chunky/ heavy duty. The very > >pretty aluminium and palstic enclosed reels you will see lots of =E2=80= =98tekkie > >diving=E2=80=99 shops flogging would probably last about five minutes in=20= the UK- > >plus you couldn=E2=80=99t get any proper line on them. The lovely thin so= ft string > >these reels come loaded with would be a menace in a UK sump. > >Next, in the UK, we always wear helmets! We guarantee you that your head > >gets bashed on the roof of the cave at least once during a dive, and in=20 > >some > >of the smaller sumps, it will be constantly grinding against the rock=20 > roof. > >It's also a handy thing to mount lights on - so you can see something > >(albeit a brown glow and a line pressed against your mask) while you are > >negotiating some of the less pleasant sumps. We normally wear two > >twenty-watt lights, with 10 degree beams, plus two or more focusable > >6-C-cell torches, on the helmet. Hand held lights and a bare head add up=20 > to > >trouble over here ! Most UK cave divers will take a minimum of 5 differen= t > >light sources on a dive, and all of these will be helmet-mounted. > >You are probably now beginning to realise why the Cave Diving Group=20 > members > >may seem to discourage people from diving in caves in Britain. If the=20 > truth > >be told, underwater caves in the UK can rarely be described as a pleasant > >environment. Sure, you can get =E2=80=98job satisfaction=E2=80=99 from a=20= well-executed=20 > >dive, > >but do not expect to see what you see in the photos in glossy magazines..= .. > >British sumps have a grim reputation. In response to the Brits being > >impressed by his pushes, and the distances he explored - Olivier Isler=20 > once > >commented: "Here in the Dordogne, the passages are large, the water is=20 > warm > >& clear, so laying line here is easy. But I know in England the caves are > >very small, the water is very cold, and you cannot see anything. Those ar= e > >very difficult & dangerous conditions." That from a man who has broken=20 > >World > >cave-diving records. > >So what else is different about cave diving in Britain? > >Perhaps even more strange than the gear configuration, for many open-wate= r > >divers, is that you can forget about having a 'buddy' underwater in=20 > British > >caves. Most cave divers in Britain believe that being solo in a sump is > >safer for any number of reasons - such as:- > > There's no-one to get physically jammed in the passage behind yo= u > >(thereby blocking your exit); > > There's no-one behind you who may get tangled in the line, and=20 > >have > >to cut it - leaving you with no guide home; > > There's no-one to accidentally disturb your 'out tags' at line > >junctions (e.g. in one cave there are 10 branch lines off the main line i= n > >the first 500m of passage); > > There's no-one to cause silt problems (but yourself); > > There's no chance of being called upon to share air - in small > >passages thisThere's nothing to get confused about - communication in=20 > sumps > >varies from the difficult to the impossible would be impossible anyway; > > There's no-one to provide you with a false sense of security; > > There's no-one to worry about, but yourself - you can concentrat= e > >on your own safety. > >This all presumes, of course, that your gear is suitable and properly=20 > cared > >for, and that you are fully proficient in all the techniques required. > >But if this were not the case, you would be liability to yourself and any > >buddy anyway. > >A 'buddy' out of the water is, however, nice to have along - for the=20 > >company > >(caves are lonely places), to help each other kit up, as a safety measure > >against accidents such as slips, falls, etc. in the passages approaching=20 > >and > >beyond the sumps, and to compare notes with afterwards regarding the=20 > nature > >of the cave and possible leads. Similarly there may be odd occasions (e.g= .. > >digging/ drilling & scaffolding) where you may be better working together > >underwater. > >One of the best things about bumping into other cave divers at a dive sit= e > >is to have a good look at their kit. What lights/ bottles/ harness/ reel=20 > do > >they use? Why do they do what they do that way? > >The same diver may well use different configurations at different dive > >sites, and even on different occasions at the same site, depending on the > >purpose of the dive. And they may well have come up with a wizard idea=20 > >which > >they would love to share with you.... > >Adaptability and imagination are the hallmarks of cave divers. There are=20= a > >surprising number of items of home-made kit in use - generally more=20 > robust/ > >heavy-duty or cheap/ disposable than open water gear. Caves constitute a > >very harsh environment, and thus equipment does not remain pristine for=20 > >long > >- just notice most bottles, harnesses, helmets & lights in use. Sometimes > >'normal' gear may be used, but adapted in particular way. We are also=20 > lucky > >that we normally dive only in freshwater. This means that electric=20 > contacts > >can be left open to the water - so you will see lights made diochroic=20 > units > >& lawn mower plugs combined with leftover bits from the plumbers merchant= s=20 >=20 > >- > >and also mild steel bits & pieces hardly affected by rust. Most people=20 > will > >be more than happy to explain their gear, and the hows, whys, and=20 > >wherefores > >of why they use it. Put ten cave divers in a room with their kit, and > >everyone will have his own way of doing it - each method refined to suit > >it's user. Of course, they will all take the Mickey out of the other nine= , > >but then they will sneak off to try out someone else's ideas! > >What they will not do, however, is to ram it down your throat and tell yo= u > >that theirs is the only way to do it! What is right is what is right for > >you, to keep you safe and happy & get you back home in one piece. Just=20 > >think > >carefully, first, about what you are doing, before you do it. > >Jammed by your backmounts in a tiny passage, banging your (unhelmeted)=20 > head > >against the roof, while trying to untie your handheld light & 17ft long=20 > >hose > >from a 2mm white nylon line that's spilled off your beautifully engineere= d > >(but broken) plexiglass line reel, it will be small comfort to know that=20 > >you > >are fully compliant with some well-publicised philosophy and gear > >configuration that was developed for use in very different conditions. > >Think of the Eastern European divers who refused to be beaten by a low mu= d > >filled sump, and finished up putting their bottles into a streamlined > >container made from two child's plastic sledges - so they could push it > >forward through the ooze in front of them, like a snow plough. What they=20 > >did > >was right for them. > >In the same way, CDG members are often seen to abandon their sidemounted > >tanks when they are away on holiday, playing in the big, clear springs in > >France, etc. - simply because it's easier carrying big bottles from the=20 > car > >to the water on a back mount. Horses for courses. > >Every member of the CDG has many years of 'dry' caving behind them before > >they got to dive in a sump. They were not taught how to cave dive. With a > >little help and advice from their friends, looking at how others go about > >it, they learn. Watching, asking - but most importantly by THINKING - and > >then cautiously trying out what they=E2=80=99ve learned for themselves. > >This is the approach that we have taken for the last 60-odd years. That= =E2=80=99s > >why we had line laying techniques, good lights, gas management rules, > >rebreathers and multiple redundancy years ago. But not content with that, > >the innovations continued with mixed gasses, DPV=E2=80=99s, and gear adap= tations=20 > by > >the bucket load. We sat, we thought, then we went out & did - cautiously. > >And we still do the same before & after every dive - always on the lookou= t > >for new ideas, techniques, equipment which we can use, or adapt, and > >incorporate into what we do. Then we share our experience with others. > >This is where the CDG helps. They are there to disseminate information an= d > >to try to share experience among cave divers in the UK. The CDG is a > >non-profit making group of individuals with one common interest - the > >exploration of caves. They do not run formal courses - training is very=20 > >much > >on an ad hoc basis, with no commercial considerations whatsoever. To pass > >through the grades to 'Qualified Diver' status may take years. > >There are no shortcuts, and no amount of money can buy you the amount of > >experience needed. > >There are no 'ready made' courses which churn out 'Qualified' cave divers > >and if some people seem to imply that their course will turn you into an > >experienced UK cave diver - don't believe them! - there is no substitute=20 > >for > >experience. Examining the accidents that have taken place in British sump= s > >shows that the vast majority of people drown within metres of an airspace= , > >and that they usually have limited experience. > >So by all means go on that cavern or cave-diving course somewhere nice & > >sunny abroad - it will hopefully give you an enjoyable and interesting > >experience. Almost certainly the techniques you will learn, and the > >discussions re: gear configuration, etc. will make you a better diver. Bu= t > >they are a world apart from what you would normally expect to find in a > >British sump. > >In the CDG's 'Qualified Diver' test, the candidate will be taken to a=20 > muddy > >quarry and will be expected to lay line, navigate, survey, as well as > >operate normally underwater like any other diver (i.e. breathing & ear > >clearing, controlling buoyancy, and maintaining air margins). Additionall= y > >the diver will be given some manual dexterity test, and at various stages= =20 > >he > >will have his mask dislodged/ removed, usually after the examiner has > >quietly turned off the candidate's reserve set, immediately followed by=20 > the > >set he is using, whilst tangling him up in the line! If the diver copes=20 > >with > >all this without approaching the incident pit, and can later satisfy the > >examiner with his technical knowledge, then he can be put forward for > >qualification. Even then, the candidate must be elected to 'Qualified=20 > >Diver' > >status by his peers in the CDG. > >And, sadly, this is still no guarantee of invulnerability in the sump.=20 > >There > >are few more frightening experiences than being lost in a sump, or > >physically stuck, or having a catastrophic gear failure. Air may be only > >metres away - or kilometres - but if you can't reach it when you need > >it..... > >To dive safely in the caves of Britain requires careful thought and > >planning, a thorough understanding of caves & caving, training, the right > >equipment, and the right mental attitude. > >So let's close with a few words from the CDG Manual :- > >'Cave diving calls for complete self-reliance and independence of=20 > >judgement, > >which does not imply ignoring the experience of others=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6t= he divers > >responsibility for safety is his and his alone, if he delegates > >responsibility for any part of the operation, he does so at his own > >risk=E2=80=A6..he should examine his motivation for cave diving=E2=80=A6= =E2=80=A6.he must to a=20 > >great > >extent live cave diving as well as practice it=E2=80=A6..this is a hard d= octrine=20 > to > >accept, nevertheless it is one born of experience.' > > > > > > > > >From: "George Irvine" <girvine@be*.ne*> > > >Reply-To: <trey@ne*.co*> > > >To: "Dominic Humphries" <diverdominic@ho*.co*>, > > ><techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > >Subject: RE: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? > > >Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 06:39:58 -0500 > > > > > >Just for laughs, tell us all why the helmets are used. This should be a > > >keeper. > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Dominic Humphries [mailto:diverdominic@ho*.co*] > > >Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 6:21 AM > > >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > > >Subject: Re: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? > > > > > > > > >The cave-diving group here in the UK always use helmets, you may find=20 > >this > > >article on their equipment worth a look: > > >http://www.cavedivinggroup.org.uk/Essays/Scoff.html > > >Regards > > >Dominic > > > > > > >From: Simon L Hartley <shartley@sc*.ed*.au*> > > > >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > > > >Subject: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? > > > >Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 16:08:17 +1100 > > > > > > > >While we're on the subject of genuine risk and paranoia. I'm doing a > > > >Cavern/Sinkhole course in a few weeks. One thing I've noticed is tha= t > > >many > > > >of the pictures of cave divers in Aus show them using helmets. I=20 > don't > > > >know this for sure but the use of helmets seems a likely topic to=20 > arise > > >and > > > >I may even be required to wear one (for at least some parts of a=20 > cavern > > > >course (not sure)). If this is going to be a problem I'd like to know > > >about > > > >it. From what I've seen the WKPP don't use helmets (I assume they ar= e > > >not > > > >DIR and may not fit well with the system). What is the deal? I can > > >think > > > >of a couple of possible problems right away including... > > > > > > > >1) May interfere with deployment of long hose. > > > > > > > >2) Obvious problems with helmet/head mounted lights (blind everyone=20 > you > > > >look at, can't hide light to look for buddies, can't signal with=20 > >lights, > > > >light heads and cables (maybe canisters too) are behind your head so > > >can't > > > >deal with problems). > > > > > > > >.....yet I imagine for abseiling into a cavern and in the dry parts=20 > >under > > > >ledges, etc there is the risk of rocks/equipment falling on you. =20 > >What's > > > >the deal? > > > > > > > >Any help appreciated. > > > > > > > >Cheers, > > > > > > > >Simon > > > > > > > >Simon L Hartley > > > >EnvSM Website Coordinator\First Year Course Coordinator > > > >Associate Lecturer > > > >School of Environmental Science and Management > > > >Southern Cross University > > > >P.O. Box 157 > > > >Lismore NSW, Australia 2480 > > > >Ph: (02) 66203251 or (61 66) 203 251 > > > >Fax:(02) 66212669 > > > >E-mail: shartley@sc*.ed*.au* > > > > > > > >http://www.scu.edu.au/schools/esm/staff/pages/shartley/ > > Visit my web page with underwater and other photos at=20 http://members.aol.com/jsuw3/index.html --part1_a2.1f11ea10.2971ac31_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D"#800040" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY= =3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=3D"0">I have never done sidemount, s= o I can't speak to that, but I can say that I've seen a number of these disc= ussions where one group or individual loudly says that DIR will not work in=20= their environment, only to finally come to the conclusion that there is no r= eason it won't. Not only that, but it probably will streamline, simpli= fy, and make safer what is done.<BR> <BR> I have a feeling if those that insist that DIR will not work in this environ= ment truly have an idea of what DIR means, then they would adopt it, and fin= d that it works better than their current approach. Change is often di= fficult to accept. DIR would look at changes to equipment configuratio= n, teamwork, and attitude. A first step is admitting that there is roo= m for improvement in what is currently being done.<BR> <BR> Jan S.<BR> <BR> <BR> In a message dated 1/11/02 10:20:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, diverdominic@h= otmail.com writes:<BR> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2= FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT= : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I have just one question:<BR> Why do you keep saying "You"? I'm not a cave diver, here or anywhere else. I= <BR> thought the way I referred to the CDG as "them" rather than "us" would have=20= <BR> made that clear.<BR> I came across the article I posted a while ago, and found it an interesting=20= <BR> one. It's the only place I've come across that doesn't just say "Our <BR> approach is just as good as DIR" but actually goes so far as to say "DIR <BR= > wouldn't work here." And having seen some of the photos in their gallery <BR= > page, such as <BR> http://www.cavedivinggroup.org.uk/images/Photos/BBC/pages/Gary_gif.htm I <BR= > found it hard to refute their argument that backmounts wouldn't work, or <BR= > that it would be very hard to pass a reg to someone behind you in some of <B= R> the caves they dive in.<BR> If you'd like to clarify how you would/do get through such narrow <BR> passageways with standard DIR kit, I'd like to hear it. Purely out of <BR> academic interest, since I have no interest in diving in easy or difficult <= BR> cave systems.<BR> Simon asked about helmets in cave diving. I posted a link to an article by <= BR> some cave divers that says why they use them. He was free to read it and <BR= > either think "Hey, good idea" or "What a bunch of garbage", and that would <= BR> have been the end of it. But then you went and said "Just for laughs, tell <= BR> us all why the helmets are used". I did so. I'm sorry to hear you didn't get= <BR> the laughs you wanted.<BR> Regards<BR> Dominic<BR> <BR> >From: "George Irvine" <girvine@be*.ne*><BR> >Reply-To: <trey@ne*.co*><BR> >To: "Dominic Humphries" <diverdominic@ho*.co*>, <BR> ><techdiver@aquanaut.com><BR> >Subject: RE: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal?<BR> >Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 06:12:53 -0500<BR> ><BR> >This is complete crap. You guys are so far off it is ridiculous - anythi= ng<BR> >to support your won flagrant stupidity. You come on over here to <BR> >Tallahassee<BR> >and tell me how "big, warm and easy access" Leon Sinks and the rest of o= ur<BR> >systems are. You see videos we make in spring tunnels that feed conduit<= BR> >caves. I know you take comfort in trying to say it looks easy to mask th= e<BR> >clown act that you guys perform, but the fact is we make it look easy an= d<BR> >none of you could get to first base in any cave relative to us using you= r<BR> >methods. Ask your big time British moron buddies who joined the USDCT an= d<BR> >tried to take us on in Wakulla with their British Bullshit methods, helm= ets<BR> >and all. If it is so big warm and easy, why did they use helmets? Becaus= e<BR> >they are morons. They spent 90 days trying to get to where I send an <BR= > >advance<BR> >team to drop bottles and scooters, and missed more than half the cave, a= nd<BR> >took twice as long to go any distance they went. 90 days to get to where= JJ<BR> >and I get in 90 minutes. Tell me about British cave diving so I can get=20= an<BR> >even bigger laugh. I guess limestone is different in the UK, water is<BR= > >different there, and all of the other things are different to account fo= r<BR> >the Mondo Bizzaro methods you ignoramuses use to do everything.<BR> ><BR> >Keep making excuses for your incompetent stupidity. I love the part abou= t<BR> >"bashing your head". That fits for most of you guys because you have zer= o<BR> >technique or diving ability, have the worst gear mess possible, and oper= ate<BR> >on pure ego and macho bravado trying to prove something, but only provin= g<BR> >how ridiculous your methods are.<BR> ><BR> >Helmets are for dry caving to keep things from falling on your head, not= <BR> >for<BR> >keeping your head from hitting things.<BR> ><BR> >Only the worst moron would then put lights on the helmet or be stupid <B= R> >enough<BR> >to store anything on the helmet. That is just beyond the pale stupid, bu= t<BR> >standard stroke practice.<BR> ><BR> >You people have no system for anything other than "every man for himself= ",<BR> >and that is well documented, and you can not tell me otherwise. You have= <BR> >contributed nothing but comedy to the sport, and you never will doing it= <BR> >your way. At the same time, you make up bullshit about us and excuses wh= y<BR> >you can not do things that we do in our sleep.<BR> ><BR> >Tell me all about you "systems" for cave diving now and why they are<BR> >anything but bullshit. I notice that you guys always mention the WKPP in= <BR> >every argument against the obvious and try to badmouth it. Come on over=20= <BR> >here<BR> >like Stanton and his idiot pal Jason did, bring your best and brightest,= <BR> >and let me make an ass out of you in spades , too.<BR> ><BR> >-----Original Message-----<BR> >From: Dominic Humphries [mailto:diverdominic@ho*.co*]<BR> >Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 8:21 AM<BR> >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR> >Subject: RE: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal?<BR> ><BR> ><BR> >I didn't realise following a link was so hard. Still, the article in<BR> >question says:<BR> >Next, in the UK, we always wear helmets! We guarantee you that your head= <BR> >gets bashed on the roof of the cave at least once during a dive, and in=20= <BR> >some<BR> >of the smaller sumps, it will be constantly grinding against the rock ro= of.<BR> ><BR> >For a time-saver, here's the whole article:<BR> >Many people have now taken "cavern-diving" or "cave-diving" courses, and= <BR> >dived in the warm, clear caves of such places as Mexico, Florida, Dordog= ne <BR> >&<BR> >Majorca. These areas provide easy, interesting and pleasurable cave divi= ng.<BR> >There are significant differences between those areas, and the UK.<BR> >Here are some things that we would tell anyone thinking of going <BR> >cave-diving<BR> >in the UK - things we think they should know...<BR> >Firstly, only a small proportion of the British Isles consists of the<BR= > >limestone in which caves most commonly occur. Thus there are a very limi= ted<BR> >number of cave-diving sites, and of these, only a handful have reasonabl= y<BR> >easy physical access combined with roomy underwater passages and occasio= nal<BR> >'good' (ie. more than 2 metres) visibility. Most of these would require=20= you<BR> >to be a fully-fledged caver yourself, and you would need to have the<BR> >necessary ropes & ladders and know how to use them safely (including= <BR> >competence in Single Rope Techniques - abseiling & prussiking). As s= ome of<BR> >the caves can be three miles from the road, several hundred feet deep, w= ith<BR> >lengthy crawls and other obstacles, you would need to be able to muster=20= a<BR> >team of cavers to carry your kit to the dive site. And of course you wou= ld<BR> >need to know where the cave entrance is!<BR> >Virtually all cave-diving sites are on private land. This means that<BR> >visitors must get the permission of the landowner before they visit. Som= e<BR> >landowners have installed physical barriers (eg. locked gates) to preven= t<BR> >access, and may treat trespassers on their land to a close-up view of th= e<BR> >wrong end of a 12-bore! At some sites it may be that the landowner does=20= not<BR> >care if people want to visit the cave (or indeed, they might prefer not=20= to<BR> >know of such a visit) but most of them just like to be asked nicely for<= BR> >permission to visit the caves. Ignoring such etiquette may result in the= <BR> >cave being closed permanently - guaranteeing you the hostility of all th= e<BR> >cave divers in the UK!<BR> >Realistically, the only way to find out about the current access<BR> >arrangements, would be to ask local active members of the CDG. They will= <BR> >also have knowledge & experience of the effects of the weather on th= e cave<BR> >in question, and whether the cave will be in flood, have good diving<BR> >conditions, what kind of visibility could be expected and what state the= <BR> >guidelines are in, etc.<BR> >Most cave diving in the UK is carried out with the aim of exploring new<= BR> >cave. Dives for the purpose of training/ testing of techniques & anc= illary<BR> >equipment are also carried out. Occasionally, when conditions allow it,=20= a<BR> >few divers will do tourist/ pleasure dives. The dives recorded in the Ca= ve<BR> >Diving Group Newsletter reflect this pattern.<BR> >Most exploration is carried out by an individual or small group of diver= s<BR> >working together on a specific project, usually after researching geolog= y/<BR> >hydrology, etc. and previous dives done at the site - via the relevant S= ump<BR> >Index, CDG Newsletters & caving club journals. The divers will subse= quently<BR> >publish their findings in the CDG Newsletter, or send them to its Editor= <BR> >for<BR> >his =E2=80=98secret file=E2=80=99 (to be published at a later, more suit= able date) in order<BR> >to share these with the caving community at large. It is also expected t= hat<BR> >a survey (plan & section) of any new discovery should be published w= ith the<BR> >report in the CDG Newsletter. Etiquette dictates that other divers will=20= not<BR> >'pirate' someone else's project while work continues. It is therefore th= e<BR> >individual's responsibility to let it be known that a project is taking<= BR> >place, and, equally, when work is complete, to let people know that it's= <BR> >'open season' again at the site in question.<BR> >For the safety and convenience of others, any diver who finds the lines=20= in<BR> >the sump in a different condition to those previously published, should<= BR> >notify the changes to the Editor for inclusion in the Newsletter.<BR> >Now let=E2=80=99s look at gear & techniques. Many divers will have c= ome across the<BR> >'Hogarthian'/ 'Doing It Right' philosophies promoted by the WKPP, GUE,<B= R> >etc..... No argument - these principles are perfect for the large, deep,= <BR> >easy-access springs, and the open water sites they dive. The value of th= e<BR> >techniques and gear configuration is reflected in the amazing exploratio= ns<BR> >they have carried out with few accidents. As the old saying goes - the <= BR> >proof<BR> >of the pudding....<BR> >Sadly, such gear configuration and techniques cannot be used in British=20= <BR> >cave<BR> >diving. Let us explain why...<BR> >For a start, most sites in the UK are inaccessible to divers using<BR> >back-mounted bottles - quite simply, you would not fit through the cave<= BR> >passages. Thus the long hose/ short hose debate, and where to put one= =E2=80=99s<BR> >light, etc. does not arise. And you can leave the scooters at home! Here= <BR> >streamlining is vital, and side-mounted tanks are de rigeur.<BR> >Although the water temperature is always cold (7 Celsius tops, 4 Celsius= <BR> >normal), wetsuits are still commonly worn in many sumps. The bulk and<BR= > >restricted movement of the drysuit for caving, and the likelihood of<BR> >overheating and damage, precludes its use in all but the easiest access<= BR> >sites. Exceptions are the long deep sumps, a long way into a cave, when<= BR> >ordinary caving gear is worn to get to dive site, with the drysuit being= <BR> >carried and put on once the sump has been reached.<BR> >The streams in the caves are often heavily peat stained, and carry<BR> >substantial amounts of silt and organic debris - thus visibility of one=20= to<BR> >two metres is considered quite reasonable/ normal, and three to four met= res<BR> >plus is excellent (but sadly very rare). Higher water flow rates also me= an<BR> >more wear and tear on the line, so 4mm thick is considered a minimum and= <BR> >6mm<BR> >is not uncommon. We have even put half inch galvanised steel chain in on= e<BR> >cave, as the floods just kept eating 11mm caving rope! Consequently thic= ker<BR> >line means that line reels need to be fairly chunky/ heavy duty. The ver= y<BR> >pretty aluminium and palstic enclosed reels you will see lots of =E2=80= =98tekkie<BR> >diving=E2=80=99 shops flogging would probably last about five minutes in= the UK-<BR> >plus you couldn=E2=80=99t get any proper line on them. The lovely thin s= oft string<BR> >these reels come loaded with would be a menace in a UK sump.<BR> >Next, in the UK, we always wear helmets! We guarantee you that your head= <BR> >gets bashed on the roof of the cave at least once during a dive, and in=20= <BR> >some<BR> >of the smaller sumps, it will be constantly grinding against the rock ro= of.<BR> >It's also a handy thing to mount lights on - so you can see something<BR= > >(albeit a brown glow and a line pressed against your mask) while you are= <BR> >negotiating some of the less pleasant sumps. We normally wear two<BR> >twenty-watt lights, with 10 degree beams, plus two or more focusable<BR> >6-C-cell torches, on the helmet. Hand held lights and a bare head add up= to<BR> >trouble over here ! Most UK cave divers will take a minimum of 5 differe= nt<BR> >light sources on a dive, and all of these will be helmet-mounted.<BR> >You are probably now beginning to realise why the Cave Diving Group memb= ers<BR> >may seem to discourage people from diving in caves in Britain. If the tr= uth<BR> >be told, underwater caves in the UK can rarely be described as a pleasan= t<BR> >environment. Sure, you can get =E2=80=98job satisfaction=E2=80=99 from a= well-executed <BR> >dive,<BR> >but do not expect to see what you see in the photos in glossy magazines.= ...<BR> >British sumps have a grim reputation. In response to the Brits being<BR> >impressed by his pushes, and the distances he explored - Olivier Isler o= nce<BR> >commented: "Here in the Dordogne, the passages are large, the water is w= arm<BR> >& clear, so laying line here is easy. But I know in England the cave= s are<BR> >very small, the water is very cold, and you cannot see anything. Those a= re<BR> >very difficult & dangerous conditions." That from a man who has brok= en <BR> >World<BR> >cave-diving records.<BR> >So what else is different about cave diving in Britain?<BR> >Perhaps even more strange than the gear configuration, for many open-wat= er<BR> >divers, is that you can forget about having a 'buddy' underwater in Brit= ish<BR> >caves. Most cave divers in Britain believe that being solo in a sump is<= BR> >safer for any number of reasons - such as:-<BR> > There's no-one to get physically jammed in the passage behi= nd you<BR> >(thereby blocking your exit);<BR> > There's no-one behind you who may get tangled in the line,=20= and <BR> >have<BR> >to cut it - leaving you with no guide home;<BR> > There's no-one to accidentally disturb your 'out tags' at l= ine<BR> >junctions (e.g. in one cave there are 10 branch lines off the main line=20= in<BR> >the first 500m of passage);<BR> > There's no-one to cause silt problems (but yourself);<BR> > There's no chance of being called upon to share air - in sm= all<BR> >passages thisThere's nothing to get confused about - communication in su= mps<BR> >varies from the difficult to the impossible would be impossible anyway;<= BR> > There's no-one to provide you with a false sense of securit= y;<BR> > There's no-one to worry about, but yourself - you can conce= ntrate<BR> >on your own safety.<BR> >This all presumes, of course, that your gear is suitable and properly ca= red<BR> >for, and that you are fully proficient in all the techniques required.<B= R> >But if this were not the case, you would be liability to yourself and an= y<BR> >buddy anyway.<BR> >A 'buddy' out of the water is, however, nice to have along - for the <BR= > >company<BR> >(caves are lonely places), to help each other kit up, as a safety measur= e<BR> >against accidents such as slips, falls, etc. in the passages approaching= <BR> >and<BR> >beyond the sumps, and to compare notes with afterwards regarding the nat= ure<BR> >of the cave and possible leads. Similarly there may be odd occasions (e.= g.<BR> >digging/ drilling & scaffolding) where you may be better working tog= ether<BR> >underwater.<BR> >One of the best things about bumping into other cave divers at a dive si= te<BR> >is to have a good look at their kit. What lights/ bottles/ harness/ reel= do<BR> >they use? Why do they do what they do that way?<BR> >The same diver may well use different configurations at different dive<B= R> >sites, and even on different occasions at the same site, depending on th= e<BR> >purpose of the dive. And they may well have come up with a wizard idea <= BR> >which<BR> >they would love to share with you....<BR> >Adaptability and imagination are the hallmarks of cave divers. There are= a<BR> >surprising number of items of home-made kit in use - generally more robu= st/<BR> >heavy-duty or cheap/ disposable than open water gear. Caves constitute a= <BR> >very harsh environment, and thus equipment does not remain pristine for=20= <BR> >long<BR> >- just notice most bottles, harnesses, helmets & lights in use. Some= times<BR> >'normal' gear may be used, but adapted in particular way. We are also lu= cky<BR> >that we normally dive only in freshwater. This means that electric conta= cts<BR> >can be left open to the water - so you will see lights made diochroic un= its<BR> >& lawn mower plugs combined with leftover bits from the plumbers mer= chants <BR> >-<BR> >and also mild steel bits & pieces hardly affected by rust. Most peop= le will<BR> >be more than happy to explain their gear, and the hows, whys, and <BR> >wherefores<BR> >of why they use it. Put ten cave divers in a room with their kit, and<BR= > >everyone will have his own way of doing it - each method refined to suit= <BR> >it's user. Of course, they will all take the Mickey out of the other nin= e,<BR> >but then they will sneak off to try out someone else's ideas!<BR> >What they will not do, however, is to ram it down your throat and tell y= ou<BR> >that theirs is the only way to do it! What is right is what is right for= <BR> >you, to keep you safe and happy & get you back home in one piece. Ju= st <BR> >think<BR> >carefully, first, about what you are doing, before you do it.<BR> >Jammed by your backmounts in a tiny passage, banging your (unhelmeted) h= ead<BR> >against the roof, while trying to untie your handheld light & 17ft l= ong <BR> >hose<BR> >from a 2mm white nylon line that's spilled off your beautifully engineer= ed<BR> >(but broken) plexiglass line reel, it will be small comfort to know that= <BR> >you<BR> >are fully compliant with some well-publicised philosophy and gear<BR> >configuration that was developed for use in very different conditions.<B= R> >Think of the Eastern European divers who refused to be beaten by a low m= ud<BR> >filled sump, and finished up putting their bottles into a streamlined<BR= > >container made from two child's plastic sledges - so they could push it<= BR> >forward through the ooze in front of them, like a snow plough. What they= <BR> >did<BR> >was right for them.<BR> >In the same way, CDG members are often seen to abandon their sidemounted= <BR> >tanks when they are away on holiday, playing in the big, clear springs i= n<BR> >France, etc. - simply because it's easier carrying big bottles from the=20= car<BR> >to the water on a back mount. Horses for courses.<BR> >Every member of the CDG has many years of 'dry' caving behind them befor= e<BR> >they got to dive in a sump. They were not taught how to cave dive. With=20= a<BR> >little help and advice from their friends, looking at how others go abou= t<BR> >it, they learn. Watching, asking - but most importantly by THINKING - an= d<BR> >then cautiously trying out what they=E2=80=99ve learned for themselves.<= BR> >This is the approach that we have taken for the last 60-odd years. That= =E2=80=99s<BR> >why we had line laying techniques, good lights, gas management rules,<BR= > >rebreathers and multiple redundancy years ago. But not content with that= ,<BR> >the innovations continued with mixed gasses, DPV=E2=80=99s, and gear ada= ptations by<BR> >the bucket load. We sat, we thought, then we went out & did - cautio= usly.<BR> >And we still do the same before & after every dive - always on the l= ookout<BR> >for new ideas, techniques, equipment which we can use, or adapt, and<BR> >incorporate into what we do. Then we share our experience with others.<B= R> >This is where the CDG helps. They are there to disseminate information a= nd<BR> >to try to share experience among cave divers in the UK. The CDG is a<BR> >non-profit making group of individuals with one common interest - the<BR= > >exploration of caves. They do not run formal courses - training is very=20= <BR> >much<BR> >on an ad hoc basis, with no commercial considerations whatsoever. To pas= s<BR> >through the grades to 'Qualified Diver' status may take years.<BR> >There are no shortcuts, and no amount of money can buy you the amount of= <BR> >experience needed.<BR> >There are no 'ready made' courses which churn out 'Qualified' cave diver= s<BR> >and if some people seem to imply that their course will turn you into an= <BR> >experienced UK cave diver - don't believe them! - there is no substitute= <BR> >for<BR> >experience. Examining the accidents that have taken place in British sum= ps<BR> >shows that the vast majority of people drown within metres of an airspac= e,<BR> >and that they usually have limited experience.<BR> >So by all means go on that cavern or cave-diving course somewhere nice &= amp;<BR> >sunny abroad - it will hopefully give you an enjoyable and interesting<B= R> >experience. Almost certainly the techniques you will learn, and the<BR> >discussions re: gear configuration, etc. will make you a better diver. B= ut<BR> >they are a world apart from what you would normally expect to find in a<= BR> >British sump.<BR> >In the CDG's 'Qualified Diver' test, the candidate will be taken to a mu= ddy<BR> >quarry and will be expected to lay line, navigate, survey, as well as<BR= > >operate normally underwater like any other diver (i.e. breathing & e= ar<BR> >clearing, controlling buoyancy, and maintaining air margins). Additional= ly<BR> >the diver will be given some manual dexterity test, and at various stage= s <BR> >he<BR> >will have his mask dislodged/ removed, usually after the examiner has<BR= > >quietly turned off the candidate's reserve set, immediately followed by=20= the<BR> >set he is using, whilst tangling him up in the line! If the diver copes=20= <BR> >with<BR> >all this without approaching the incident pit, and can later satisfy the= <BR> >examiner with his technical knowledge, then he can be put forward for<BR= > >qualification. Even then, the candidate must be elected to 'Qualified <B= R> >Diver'<BR> >status by his peers in the CDG.<BR> >And, sadly, this is still no guarantee of invulnerability in the sump. <= BR> >There<BR> >are few more frightening experiences than being lost in a sump, or<BR> >physically stuck, or having a catastrophic gear failure. Air may be only= <BR> >metres away - or kilometres - but if you can't reach it when you need<BR= > >it.....<BR> >To dive safely in the caves of Britain requires careful thought and<BR> >planning, a thorough understanding of caves & caving, training, the=20= right<BR> >equipment, and the right mental attitude.<BR> >So let's close with a few words from the CDG Manual :-<BR> >'Cave diving calls for complete self-reliance and independence of <BR> >judgement,<BR> >which does not imply ignoring the experience of others=E2=80=A6=E2=80= =A6the divers<BR> >responsibility for safety is his and his alone, if he delegates<BR> >responsibility for any part of the operation, he does so at his own<BR> >risk=E2=80=A6..he should examine his motivation for cave diving=E2=80= =A6=E2=80=A6.he must to a <BR> >great<BR> >extent live cave diving as well as practice it=E2=80=A6..this is a hard=20= doctrine to<BR> >accept, nevertheless it is one born of experience.'<BR> ><BR> ><BR> ><BR> > >From: "George Irvine" <girvine@be*.ne*><BR> > >Reply-To: <trey@ne*.co*><BR> > >To: "Dominic Humphries" <diverdominic@ho*.co*>,<BR> > ><techdiver@aquanaut.com><BR> > >Subject: RE: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal?<BR> > >Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 06:39:58 -0500<BR> > ><BR> > >Just for laughs, tell us all why the helmets are used. This should=20= be a<BR> > >keeper.<BR> > ><BR> > >-----Original Message-----<BR> > >From: Dominic Humphries [mailto:diverdominic@ho*.co*]<BR> > >Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 6:21 AM<BR> > >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR> > >Subject: Re: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal?<BR> > ><BR> > ><BR> > >The cave-diving group here in the UK always use helmets, you may fi= nd <BR> >this<BR> > >article on their equipment worth a look:<BR> > >http://www.cavedivinggroup.org.uk/Essays/Scoff.html<BR> > >Regards<BR> > >Dominic<BR> > ><BR> > > >From: Simon L Hartley <shartley@sc*.ed*.au*><BR> > > >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR> > > >Subject: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal?<BR> > > >Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 16:08:17 +1100<BR> > > ><BR> > > >While we're on the subject of genuine risk and paranoia. = I'm doing a<BR> > > >Cavern/Sinkhole course in a few weeks. One thing I've no= ticed is that<BR> > >many<BR> > > >of the pictures of cave divers in Aus show them using helmets.= I don't<BR> > > >know this for sure but the use of helmets seems a likely topic= to arise<BR> > >and<BR> > > >I may even be required to wear one (for at least some parts of= a cavern<BR> > > >course (not sure)). If this is going to be a problem I'd like=20= to know<BR> > >about<BR> > > >it. From what I've seen the WKPP don't use helmets (I as= sume they are<BR> > >not<BR> > > >DIR and may not fit well with the system). What is the d= eal? I can<BR> > >think<BR> > > >of a couple of possible problems right away including...<BR> > > ><BR> > > >1) May interfere with deployment of long hose.<BR> > > ><BR> > > >2) Obvious problems with helmet/head mounted lights (blind eve= ryone you<BR> > > >look at, can't hide light to look for buddies, can't signal wi= th <BR> >lights,<BR> > > >light heads and cables (maybe canisters too) are behind your h= ead so<BR> > >can't<BR> > > >deal with problems).<BR> > > ><BR> > > >.....yet I imagine for abseiling into a cavern and in the dry=20= parts <BR> >under<BR> > > >ledges, etc there is the risk of rocks/equipment falling on yo= u. <BR> >What's<BR> > > >the deal?<BR> > > ><BR> > > >Any help appreciated.<BR> > > ><BR> > > >Cheers,<BR> > > ><BR> > > >Simon<BR> > > ><BR> > > >Simon L Hartley<BR> > > >EnvSM Website Coordinator\First Year Course Coordinator<BR> > > >Associate Lecturer<BR> > > >School of Environmental Science and Management<BR> > > >Southern Cross University<BR> > > >P.O. Box 157<BR> > > >Lismore NSW, Australia 2480<BR> > > >Ph: (02) 66203251 or (61 66) 203 251<BR> > > >Fax:(02) 66212669<BR> > > >E-mail: shartley@sc*.ed*.au*<BR> > > ><BR> > > >http://www.scu.edu.au/schools/esm/staff/pages/shartley/<BR> ></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800040" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2= FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=3D"0"><BR> <BR> <B>Visit my web page with underwater and other photos at http://members.aol.= com/jsuw3/index.html</B></FONT></HTML> --part1_a2.1f11ea10.2971ac31_boundary-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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