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As VB Tech #1 stroke of the year (yes, I still have the "medal"), I agree with the Cobber. JT thinks independently, yet understands and practices DIR. Wendell James Cobb wrote: > > I know you don't do that stuff JT, I have watched you over the years use the > old way and then try the DIR way and then keep doing it DIR simply because > it works better than the old way. > > Most of the DIR antagonists have never tried a decent set of wings, instead > defending crap like OMS stuporwings to the death, sometimes litterally. They > defend drings & cockrings on steel stages even when, if you apply the > smallest bit logic to situation, you can see that it's a stupid setup. > > So far I have not seen someone who has actually tried DIR go back to the old > way. You would have to be an idiot not to see DIR's advanteges once you dive > it. > > Jim > > On 12/22/01 1:05 PM, "Capt JT" <captjt@mi*.co*> wrote: > > > Cobb, do really think I agree with all that bullshit gear those guys wear > > in those mags. Why don't you just tell everyone how I wear my gear and put > > all the bullshit about me to rest. > > > > > > At 01:14 PM 12/22/01 +0000, Jim Cobb wrote: > >> If you all want to see how these people were equipped when they died just > >> take a look at the latest Immersed magazine. > >> > >> The entire issue is devoted to stuporwings, steel stages, metal-to-metal > >> connections, butt-mounting, pony bottles, the whole nightmarish ensemble > >> which has contributed mightly to the "death list". > >> > >> How a magazine devoted to the sport of "technical" diving could publish > >> such tripe is beyond comprehension. Well, maybe not, seeing how half the > >> ads are OMS and a bunch of the other usual suspects. > >> > >> But considering how Chowdbury seems to be capitalizing off of divers > >> deaths (Last Dive) I guess he figures that promoting the "dark side" will > >> just give him material for his next morbid book. > >> > >> Christ, magazines are a bad as lawyers, if there's a buck in it... > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> <<Learn about Trimix at www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/>> > >>> JT, it is pretty obvious that bondage wings are complete nonsense, and Doug > >>> Chapman and others have covered a lot of the reasons why. I do not know why > >>> you have to defend idiocy that you yourself do not believe in, and then do > >>> so with a malpropic, nonsensensical , illiterate stream of consciousness > >>> from an obvious moron. There are not may people stupid enough to have > >>> written that, so I will personally bet it was Mouth. > >>> > >>> The fact is that the video ( which the dive shop owner tried to destroy but > >>> one of his disgruntled employees copied it and gave it to the lawyers), > >>> showed that the guy could not control his buoyancy. However, who knows if it > >>> was the bondage wings, the "steal" ( what a moron) tanks with the wetsuit, > >>> or just that fact that the guy had no business doing the dive in the first > >>> place. > >>> > >>> Maybe you should ask mouth about the guy who died in the rock quarry in PA > >>> by jumping in with "steal" stages and bondage wings, and could not get them > >>> to hold enough gas due to the bungees triggering the OPV. Maybe you should > >>> ask me about when I tried to lift Jane Ornstean from the ocean floor with > >>> her bondage wings and the same things happened. > >>> > >>> Chapman just said he got asked to test the wings in that case, he made no > >>> other comments about the situation. Notice that whoever wrote that slop was > >>> so happy about only paying 450 grand. No mention of the three dead, the wife > >>> of the cop who died and could not collect insurance due to no body and could > >>> not pay her bills ( > >>> until I had to go to court as an expert witness to why he was dead), or the > >>> family of the guy from New York who died in that dive, and IANTD "class". > >>> > >>> I think two things are clear here from your post: 1) whoever wrote that is > >>> an illiterate moron, and 2) whoever wrote this is an unscrupulous scum bag > >>> of the lowest order. The fact is that nothing about what happened that day > >>> has been corrected, and nothing about what happened to Jane Ornstein has > >>> been corrected. > >>> > >>> Aligning your self with known assholes and scumbags is not making you look > >>> too good, especially when none of that has anything to do with the topic at > >>> hand, and none of it has anything to do with how you practice this sport or > >>> with what you know to be correct. > >>> > >>> The rest of that thing is a complete fabrication, with none of the facts > >>> that need to be told about that accident. I did 23 dives at my own cost on > >>> weekends when I could have been doing something a lot more fun and took the > >>> two per day , back to back 250 foot drift dives offshore in howling current > >>> and bad weather to try to find those guys. I had to go to court and see the > >>> cop's wife crying face. You are wrong here for perpetuating mouth's lies and > >>> dangerous stupidity. Mount is scum, and he has proven it over and over. Let > >>> the asshole make his own posts to this list and I will rip him to pieces > >>> with what was wrong there and continues to be wrong in his organization. > >>> Anyone can take OMS apart - you don't have to be much more than a Downes > >>> Syndrome case to see through that crap > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*] > >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 11:08 PM > >>> To: dougch@ea*.ne*; techdiver@aquanaut.com > >>> Subject: Re: Bondage wings inflation. > >>> > >>> > >>> Doug > >>> The lawsuit you refer to, was it the WPB 3 accident in FL . If so can you > >>> confirm the statement below that was emailed to me in private about the > >>> court case. How accurate is the info below. > >>> > >>>> The triple death in WPB well the instructor is an or was an excellent > >>> instructor and unlike what xxxxx states he did not smoke and he was not a > >>> drunk. He was a retired sgt Major from SP and had 4 tours of duty in Nam > >>> He went through swim school with the USN in February. He ran the US Army > >>> swim Scholl for a few years. > >>> He swim 2 miles 3 times a week up until the day he died and he ran for 20 > >>> minutes on the non swimming days .That comes from years of combat swims > >>> He was an excellent diver and an excellent instructor. > >>> xx was the expert witness against him or his estate the testimony is > >>> interesting. Unfortunately the insurance company settled for 450,00 instead > >>> of going to court as there is no doubt in the lawyers mind and evidently in > >>> their that the case would have been beaten.xxxxxx per se had been dropped > >>> out of the case 3 months earlier and the suit then was against xxxx estate, > >>> xxxxxxxxxxxxx, The boat Captain and the diver who tried to assist in the > >>> rescue until xxxxx sent him up because he was low on gas. . The suit had > >>> been for 9 million originally. The offer for 450,00 was made as that was > >>> the amount the insurance company figured they would spend in appeals once > >>> the plaintiffs lost the case. And that offer was put on the table at > >>> mediation called for by the plaintiffs attorneys the day before the case. > >>> The attorney at hat time had only offered them 50 thousand (basically the > >>> cost of a trial) So at 4 PM the offer was made and it was to be taken off > >>> the table at 8:30 PM at 7:50 xxxxx called and they took it. > >>> They then went to court against the diver (xxxxxxxx) who survived with xx > >>> testifying against him. Had they won this case that would have meant > >>> whatever you do do not try and rescue a diver. Fortunately the jury found > >>> that xxxxxxx efforts only helped the situation not contribute to it as xx > >>> was implying. Then the judge threw out the suit in regard to xxxxxxx the > >>> 3rd diver who died. xxxxxx was a close friend of xxxx but when they had a > >>> problem he had left and went up to deco on his lift bag. The last time > >>> xxxxxx saw him he was on his lift bag. He may have gone back down to assist > >>> or he may have had a problem of his own. He was not a student or anything > >>> that nature. He had not been with them on the three times they got up to > >>> 150 and then sank back to 200 plus before xxxxx left. > >>> As far as config there was a complete video of xxxxx xxxxxx taking the same > >>> equipment that was used by the deceased and ascending just using his BC. > >>> Then they have a scene with xxxxx ascending with four steal stages just to > >>> show that the BC would lift that much more. > >>> Now I understand that they are making an appeal against the boat captain > >>> because he has no insurance so will not have a lawyer to represent him. No > >>> they will not get any real money but they can set a example they could use > >>> in future cases against boat captains in similar situations. or any > >>> accidents for that matter. > >>> Thought you might want to know more about what happened than what is stated > >>> on tech diver > >>> > >>> END OF EMAIL > >>> > >>> At 07:26 PM 12/18/01 -0500, Doug Chapman wrote: > >>>> It is possible to orally inflate bondage wings at depth. I participated in > >>>> gathering evidence for a lawsuit that involved bondage wings where the > >>>> plaintiff claimed it was not possible to orally inflate the wings and get > >>>> sufficient buoyancy to become positive. So we took the dead man's gear, a > >>>> wetsuit, 15 or 20lbs of extra weight, two stages (if I recall I believe one > >>>> was steel), and an extra steel 72 stage which I carried and passd to the > >>>> diver at depth and went on a 230ft dive in freshwater (the fatality > >>> occurred > >>>> in seawater which would have been even more buoyant). > >>>> > >>>> We documented on video at depth that the diver could achieve buoyancy using > >>>> the power inflator and that after the wings were completely dumped they > >>> could > >>>> be orally inflated to achieve positive buoyancy (several times). The > >>>> demonstration proved the claim that the particular BC in question could not > >>>> provide the lift was false. End of my involvement (as a safety diver during > >>>> the exercise). > >>>> > >>>> Now if anyone would ask me if I would recommend a bondage type wing I would > >>>> immediately say no. I tell people to cut off the cords on the wings they > >>> have > >>>> but that still doesn't get rid of the baloon size some of these wings are > >>>> (e.g. 100# of lift). As mentioned by several people on this list, the > >>> bungeed > >>>> (bungled?) wings are not desirable IMHO because: > >>>> > >>>> 1) The ability to precisely control venting is compromised by the positive > >>>> overpressure in the wing created by the elastic cords. The pressure > >>> anywhere > >>>> in a submerged air bubble (the bladder in your BC) is equal to the > >>>> hydrostatic pressure at the lowest (deepest) point on the bladder minus the > >>>> weight of the air to the point in the bladder in question. This small > >>>> pressure offset created by hydrostatic pressure is more than sufficient to > >>>> properly vent a BC, with a degree of fine control. > >>>> > >>>> 2) A puncture in the wing may be catastropic as the cords tend to > >>> completely > >>>> squeeze the wing in size. in a BC that has no bungees, an air bubble can > >>> be > >>>> trapped within the wing and still offer flotation. > >>>> > >>>> 3) The bungeed wings are typically monsterous in size and the drag created > >>> by > >>>> the crumpled mess can be prohibitive. > >>>> > >>>> 4) The location of a bungeed wing (maybe unless it is fully inflated), on a > >>>> horizontal diver, causes the center of buoyancy of the diver (with tanks) > >>> to > >>>> be farther below the center of gravity of the diver (with tanks) and > >>>> therefore the stability of the diver is reduced. Note if you observe > >>>> non-bungeed wings you will notice the two wing tips will be alongside the > >>>> tanks. This is where the bulk of your nominal "in-flight" buoyancy should > >>> be > >>>> from a stability viewpoint. If you are weighted properly this volume will > >>> be > >>>> minimized offering sufficient reserve buoyancy if needed. > >>>> > >>>> 5) I've had people tell me you need 100#s of lift in a BC in the event your > >>>> buddy loses buoyancy and needs help - therefore you should use bungees to > >>>> consolidate the large wing. To that I say bullshit. Of course you and your > >>>> partner should be weighted correctly. > >>>> > >>>> Yes you can inflate a bungeed wing orally and you can get sufficient > >>> buoyancy > >>>> in most cases, but the negatives far outweigh and perceived advantages > >>> (which > >>>> I can't think of) so why bother with something inferior? > >>>> > >>>> Think Occum's razor!!! > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> IMHO, > >>>> Doug > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >>>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >>> > >>> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the > >>> water" > >>> > >>> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more > >>> Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ > >>> Email captjt@mi*.co* > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >>> > >>> > > > > "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the > > water" > > > > Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more > > Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ > > Email captjt@mi*.co* > > > > > > > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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