Dear James, List,
You are asking George to plan a dive he is ideologically apposed to.
0-40m Nitrox
40+ Trimix
Put air in your tyres.
An over simplification, if you compare this with the GUE recommended mixes.
We have been doing some dives in a 100m hole down at Pine Creek.
I was down the recently doing some shallower stuff (40m), and I thought the
following was interesting.
Back gas EAN 32.
Stage trimix 20 O2/ 15 He.
Stage EAN 50.
I dropped down to 40m on back gas and changed to the stage of 20/15.
On the nitrox I did not feel narcosis, but my head seemed to clear on the
trimix.
The amount of nitrogen was virtually the same in both mixes.
I do not think the difference in sensation was psychosomatic.
Hence, is there a recognised narcotic value of oxygen?
I have not seen it documented, but on atomic weight, it should be higher
than nitrogen.
Jeff the Darwinian, OZ.

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Dibbs" <James.Dibbs@op*.co*.au*>
To: "'techdiver list'" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:43 AM
Subject: Oxygen Clock and profiles


>
> "Give me an exact dive that you want to do or are doing and I will give
you
> and exact run for it as I would do it."
>
> George.
>
> Could tell me how you would do the following dives: 25 min and 30 min @
50m
> and 55m.
>
> These are relatively short dives compared to some of the stuff you do but
I
> would like to be able to use the knowledge you have acquired about
> decompression.
>
> The profiles dives above cover almost all of the diving we do in the
Sydney
> area.
>
> Deco gas is nitrox 50%, bottom gas is air (until I can find an instructor
> who teaches a trimix course I'm happy with).
>
> Billy Williams tells me that Andrew Georgitsis (spelling?) was planning to
> come out to Australia to do some trimix courses sometime in the near
future.
> Are you aware if GUE teaches the deco methods used by the WKPP.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> James Dibbs
> Sydney, Australia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trey@ne*.co* [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]
> Sent: Tuesday, 11 December 2001 23:19
> To: Osman Tosun
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock and profiles
>
>
>
> My deco is in the text of the stories. We have been recording these now
with
> the Suunto computers set to gauge mode. We download those and merely write
> down the run times for each gas change. Hunsucker will be publishing all
of
> that. I did not want any decos put into the dive reports on WKPP or the
GUE
> site unless they were identical to what I prescribe to avoid confusion. It
> is interesting that the guys who do not do it my way always have a worse
> result when tested.
>
> The dive profiles you are asking about come under what I call the "minimum
> deco requirement", meaning that they will not appear as proportionally
short
> as the long profiles which hit saturation. Give me an exact dive that you
> want to do or are doing and I will give you and exact run for it as I
would
> do it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Osman Tosun [mailto:osman_tosun@ya*.co*]
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 11:09 AM
> To: Trey
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: Re: Oxygen Clock and profiles
>
>
> Hi George,
>
> Let me introduce myself first as a recent observer on
> the list and a recreational/ weekend tech diver who
> dives in the warm waters of the Philippines, run times
> rarely exceeding 2hrs.
>
> I was very interested in following the thread on
> oxygen management during deco and the descriptions of
> your pioneering profiles as you mentioned.  I had a
> quick surf through the WKPP site but could not really
> find profiles as such.  I saw your standard mixes and
> summary dive reports giving depth and bottom time.
> Please could you point me in the right direction to
> where I could find your deco profiles/ running times.
> I am particularly interested in your shorter dives!
> Say, less than 330 ft and bottom times in the order of
> 30 mins.  For example looking at the dive reports for
> 2000: Feb 5 Sally Ward Spring 245 ft for 25 mins or
> June 23 Wakulla 280ft for 25 mins.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Osman Tosun.
> --- Wendell Grogan <wgrogan@dc*.ne*> wrote:
> > Trey,
> > A minor point, but important.
> > On breaks from O2, the closer you get to real
> > normoxia (i.e.. 21%) the
> > better.  In fact, if you get down to the 17% range,
> > there is some
> > evidence that is even better.  Air, at 20 feet is
> > 0.34 ppO2.  Most
> > bottom gas mixes are going to be best.
> > Wendell
> >
> > Trey wrote:
> > >
> > >  The short version of the answer is that we came
> > up with this ( 12 on , 6
> > > off )by trying everything and arriving at that. We
> > knew from any of our
> > > diving that long exposures to higher ppo2s left us
> > feeling like we had a
> > > chest cold. We started out with the usual crap
> > that is taught out there ( 20
> > > on then break ) and found that to be useless. We
> > found loss of vital
> > > capacity with these regimens.  Now we have no such
> > negative results.
> > >
> > >  The oxygen takes less than 12 minutes to reach as
> > high an effective
> > > saturation level as is useful. Beyond that the
> > body reacts by constricting
> > > blood vessels everywhere which limits off gassing,
> > by trying to protect the
> > > lining of the lungs and hence thickens the
> > transfer area by adding cells and
> > > excreting mucous which impedes gas transfer, and
> > by causing swelling of the
> > > lung tissue which further reduces gas exchange
> > capability, not to mention
> > > scarring and long term damage that in my opinion
> > will come back to haunt the
> > > agencies who teach the baloney.
> > >
> > >   Returning to a more normoxic ppo2 will reverse
> > these effects. However, if
> > > you do not return soon enough, the effects take a
> > lot longer to reverse. The
> > > big and important thing here is not to depend on
> > reversing this action, but
> > > to preempt it and keep it from fully developing
> > and thus make what does
> > > occur easier to reverse and at the same time
> > actually improve your off
> > > gassing by opening the capillaries back up and
> > allowing gas to escape from
> > > the tissues into the blood. This "toggling" back
> > and forth has proven to be
> > > the absolute best method of gas use in
> > decompression. DIR deco.
> > >
> > >   If you fail to do this at any point in the deco
> > using high ppo2s you will
> > > merely be holding gas in tissues which may expand
> > before it can be removed
> > > as you move up - another massive flaw in all of
> > the existing deco programs.
> > >
> > >   As you get higher in the water column, off
> > gassing is more safely and
> > > effectively achieved by the moving the gradient
> > and letting gas bubble into
> > > the bloodstream and be caught and removed by the
> > lungs, but lower down this
> > > will not work - one more huge flaw in deco
> > programs.
> > >
> > >   You really should look on the WKPP site and read
> > some of my profiles and
> > > decompressions on the longer dives to see all the
> > massive deviations from
> > > what is thought to be correct by the agencies.
> > >
> > >   In fact, I will tell you right now that this is
> > just like deep air - the
> > > same idiots who fought for their precious deep air
> > are the ones who teach
> > > the most incorrect deco and theories of deco. The
> > same people - give them a
> > > wide berth in all areas of diving since you can
> > NOT teach pigs to sing.
> > >
> > >   If want real information, come to the proven
> > sources.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Charles Roth [mailto:divr555@ho*.co*]
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 2:53 AM
> > > To: trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > > Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock
> > >
> > > Trey,
> > > In fear of sounding stupid, yes, I would really
> > like to know how you all
> > > came up with this. Or at least point me in the
> > right direction to find the
> > > resources about this.  Thanks.
> > >
> > > Chuck R
> > >
> > > >From: trey@ne*.co* (Trey)
> > > >To: "Isaac Callicrate" <icallicrate@ho*.co*>,
> > <mjblackmd@ya*.co*>,
> > > ><techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > >Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock
> > > >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:10 -0500
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Isaac, we have found that 12 minutes on, 6
> > minutes off is the ideal. We
> > > >only
> > > >do oxygen at 30 feet in a habitat where we have
> > caves that accommodate
> > > >this.
> > > >Otherwise we do oxygen at 20 feet or slightly
> > less in the water with the
> > > >same schedule. If anyone wants to go back over
> > why we do this and how we
> > > >determine bottom gas , deco gas and exposure ( or
> > how we arrived at what we
> > > >do), I can repeat it .
> > > >
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: Isaac Callicrate
> > [mailto:icallicrate@ho*.co*]
> > > > >Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 2:51 AM
> > > > >To: mjblackmd@ya*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > > > >Subject: Re: Oxygen Clock
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Im not sure why everyone is harping on who this
> > guy is or what he
> > > > >has posted
> > > > >in the past instead of answering his questions.
> > > > >Am I missing something in the charter that says
> > you have to rate an
> > > >answer
> > > > >or that previous posts disqualify you from
> > getting one?
> > > > >Ill give it a shot even though there are
> > probably more informed qualified
> > > > >people on this list that should be.
> > > > >I see WKPP as crossing the grey area between
> > recreational and
> > > > >working diving
> > > > >(watch out for OSHA, ADC, and USCG). They are
> > performing dives where more
> > > > >compartments are saturated than most other
> > recreational profiles.
> > > > >They have
> > > > >been diving similar profiles over and over so
> > have built up an amount of
> > > > >historical data combined with some doppler
> > research that they have used
> > > >to
> > > > >make assumptions about their profiles.
> > > > >I dont think anyone can say right or wrong yet.
> > If their people
> > > > >arent having
> > > > >DCS manifestations or O2 toxicity issues than I
> > would definately
> > > > >say that by
> > > > >being the guinea pig and letting the rest reap
> > the rewards of the
> > > > >data they
> > > > >are rising above.
> > > > >Please do the math on a Navy standard TT 6A
> > with 50/50 @ 165' and 100% @
> > > > >60'. Do it on a Navy single exposure of 100% at
> > 25' for 240 minutes.  Why
> > > > >havent you e-mailed them? Please CC me when you
> > do. I think it is
> > > > >publicaffairs@ne*.na*.na*.mi*
> > > > >WKPP isnt the only one that challenges
> > theoretical formulas and
> > > > >assumptions
> > > > >with historical data. Commercial, military,
> > hyperbaric facilities all
> > > >have
> > > > >modified the standard thinking on the CNS
> > clock.
> > > > >My personal feelings, I wouldnt recommend
> > pushing the clock on a working
> > > > >dive when not required. For recreational dives,
> > there is no need
> > > > >to push it
> > > > >when you are having fun. If you use a habitat
> > or a chamber or
> > > > >maybe at rest
> > > > >during deco with surface support, the risk is
> > minimized.
> > > > >I dont think that taking breaks off O2 is going
> > to significantly
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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