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The pvc it self will not break, it can split where the strikes are attached if hit hard enough often enough. I t takes me 8 times throwing it on the floor to get it to break. Nylon absorbs water and swells, but you can cut them smaller. HDPE is flexy, but light so I can make them a lot thicker and have the same result. I still would go PVC for extreme depth, but now you have you choices with my stuff. -----Original Message----- From: terry michael [mailto:OEA51@go*.co*] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 1:55 AM To: Trey Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: Re: Re: GI and SS to Merge In my opinion PVC is optimal with regards to integrity and the nylon with regards to impact resistance. The HDPE is somewhere in the middle. I just can't see anyone breaking one of those big thick PVC nose cones you use during a dive, has it actually ever happened, that you know of? -----Original Message----- From: "Trey"<trey@ne*.co*> To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>, "Bryon Bertrim"<bryon@be*.co*>, "pina"<pina3@be*.ne*>, "E.N. Von"<evlink2001@ho*.co*>, quest@gu*.co*, "Cavers@Ca*.Co*"<cavers@cavers.com>, "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com"<techdiver@aquanaut.com> Date: Tue Nov 06 04:42:11 PST 2001 Subject: Re: GI and SS to Merge > >I agree, but will make them for those who think otherwise. The screw issue >is not on the scooters built by me but on the fake copies. Also, I offer >nylon or pvc noses, and they both have their issues. I now also offer HDPE >noses, and they have their issues as well. > >However, you can get any combination from me with a full warranty and I will >switch it out for the other versions at no cost if you do not like the one >you get. Now what? > >-----Original Message----- >From: terry michael [mailto:OEA51@go*.co*] >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 9:11 AM >To: Bryon Bertrim; pina; Trey; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*; >Cavers@Ca*.Co*; Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com >Subject: Re: GI and SS to Merge > > >To start making the scooter in HDPE and a streamlined shroud makes no since >to me. If it were I I'd keep it the same as before but with the HDPE nose >cone and figure out some way loose the SS screws in the aluminum. They are >un-removable and have too be drilled out if you break the cheap plastic mako >handle that is crudely burned with a soldering gun to make the cable >connection. However the motorcycle grip solution is even worse in my >opinion. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Bryon Bertrim"<bryon@be*.co*> >To: "pina"<pina3@be*.ne*>, "Trey"<trey@ne*.co*>, "E.N. >Von"<evlink2001@ho*.co*>, quest@gu*.co*, >"Cavers@Ca*.Co*"<cavers@cavers.com>, >"Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com"<techdiver@aquanaut.com> >Date: Fri Nov 02 14:55:05 PST 2001 >Subject: GI and SS to Merge > >>WOW, i realize this is a touchy issue and so close to home for you too. Now >>we know who gets all GIs best service. >> >>This scooter market is tiny and no one is going to get rich. Sort of like >>the dive business. Want to make a small fortune start with a large one. >This >>is one area I'm glad to see so many basement pioneers. Lets face it, the >>Gavin Scooter is not that complex and is easy to clone. Others will follow. >>I hope they drive the price way down. The most expensive part is the >Oceanic >>motor. Hell a guy down the road took his Gavin to a local high tech machine >>shop they blue printed it now he is building and selling them for 2K. >Almost >>like the open source SW market. If George really wants support he should >>publish the blue prints and the tricks of the trade, encourage everyone to >>build his own or buy parts and be happy that he was responsible for the >>design. That's what this industry needs as a true pioneer. >> >>I don't know Rod's history but he is a good engineer, and is very detailed >>about his units. He is not trying to cut corners or build a subgrade >>product. Albeit he will never have the cave experience that GI has but I'm >>sure GI is not personally hand building every component that goes into each >>unit nor has the skill and interest. Rod's abilities and workman ship seem >>high. I expect both are very good products. I have known Rod for a little >>over 2 yrs now. And he refuses to bad mouth GI, the Gavin or Halcyon, he >>makes it quite clear its not something he wants any part of. He is just to >>busy trying to put food on table like any of us. He once told me that >>Halcyon was only paying him $12 bucks a hour and he could not afford to >work >>for them. And for that meager amount no one owes anybody any loyalty. >> >>Rod is quite dedicated to building scooters. Its not some part-time hobby >>for him. He has built a full-time, full service business rightly or wrongly >>and wants to support his customers as best possible. As a customer i >>appreciate this, its no different from Halcyon when i buy a BC or dive >>light. Why should i expect anything less from my scooter manufacturer. I >can >>not understand why GI bothers. Maybe he and Rod should link up and build a >>real business. Sounds like a good partnership, I tell you we would all get >a >>better product. Only thing is GI could not be in charge of sales. He makes >a >>great VC, CEO or spokesman but he would piss off to many customers. >> >>When i was ready to buy a scooter from GI, i barley got an email answered, >>maybe a terse one liner at best. I was afraid that i would unknowing piss >>him off and never get a part or a fix. This was crazy. Why would anyone in >>his right mind pay someone to treat them this bad. There are hundreds of >>examples and references like this. Also GI and even the old WKPPers now EE >>trainers all made it quite clear that GIs first support cycles go to new >>WKPP crew, old crew came next and at the bottom of the list were the un >>knowns like me. Even Carmichael had to get Rod to repair his Gavin, GI did >>not have the time. Most are either fixing them themselves or have someone >>local fix them. And Gavins break just like SS units. Now with a little real >>competition Trey is sounding a little customer friendly. This is good. >> >>So it sounds like we should thank all of them GI, Rod and Bill Gavin. Bill >G >>did the original designs, GI took those designs and improved on them, Rod >>took those designs and improved on them, GI takes Rodney's designs, who is >>next. Every time someone pisses GI off the price goes down and the product >>gets better. COOL >> >>BB >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*> >>To: "Bryon Bertrim" <bryon@be*.co*>; "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "E.N. >>Von" <evlink2001@ho*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; "Cavers@Ca*.Co*" >><cavers@ca*.co*>; "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:34 PM >>Subject: RE: scooters >> >> >>> George developed these scooters 10 years ago for deep, long range >>> exploration in the WKPP. There was nothing else available. He bore all of >>> the expense of developing and perfecting this tool. Initially, they were >>> only made available to WKPP members, but later other groups showed an >>> interest and extras were produced and sold to help fund the Project. All >>> expenses of the project are paid by George and have been paid by George >>for >>> ten years. >>> >>> Rodney contacted George and Robert Carmichael about getting a job here >>so >>> he could move to the States. George arranged one for him at one of his >>> father's companies based on Rodney's experience in oz making fishing >>lures. >>> Pipewelders is one of his fathers companies. Robert ended up hiring him >at >>> Brownies. Robert asked George to show Rodney how to work on the scooters. >>> >>> Rod then quit, came up with a scooter of his own, and is sitting around >>> riding on our success while producing a kluged product that reflects >zero >>> understanding of what makes scooters good or bad, and then badmouths us >at >>> the same time with complete lies and a total misunderstanding of why we >do >>> what we do and plays to an audience of whiners who like to hate George. >>Ask >>> anyone who has dealt with George on scooters or anything else directly >and >>> you will get a different answer that the crap that the losers put on >here. >>> Ask any of the more than 200 people who own one of George's scooters, and >>> ask any of the people who have bullshit clones that fail to perform like >a >>> Gavin. >>> >>> Then, to add insult to injury . either Rod or one of his little buddies >>put >>> out a series of anonymous posts making all kinds of false claims about >>> George and his scooters. That was it. George warned what he would do - >>make >>> the same thing only a hell of a lot better and cheaper, and it took him >no >>> time at all to do just that. >>> >>> Enough is enough. Some people never get the message about fighting George >>> and the WKPP and doing so anonymously or with bullshit and lies. George >>> merely had his machine shop make up a scooter looking the same ( tapered >>on >>> the end like that makes any difference ) and one piece inside and out ( >>> Rodney's is NOT although he advertises that it is). However, he solved >>all >>> of the problems of Rod's scooter and made a far improved version for less >>> money that still mates up with all existing scooters made by George, and >>> like all scooters made by George, has a lifetime warranty and superior >>> performance. >>> >>> So for those who think the submersion is somehow better, think again. >But, >>> you can get a far better version of the it cheaper, or you can get the >>> original Gavin. For those with existing fleets of gavins, these new ones >>> will mate up in all of the modular components. Once again, results talk, >>> bullshit walks . >>> >>> What happened to the hypocrite who claimed Rod had "improved" on the >>> design? Which is it, copy or improvement? make up your minds. It is >always >>> the worst hypocrites who do the loudest howling. >>> >>> The fact is you can have any scooter you want from George, Halcyon, EE >and >>> it will be made by people who have the track record to know what they are >>> doing and the ability to back it up. is there anything else you guys want >>> to fight with George, JJ, Halcyon, EE or WKPP about ? Anyone feel lucky? >>> George has two courses of action he has followed with liars and anonymous >>> bullshitters - 1) let Alton Hall handle it, 2) do something more to the >>> point. Have it either way. Sooner or later the idiots will get sick of >>> losing and shut the hell up. >>> >>> You guys only hurt one person with this - yourselves. Now you have >>scooters >>> that are superseded by a faster, superior product that is sold for less >>> money. You have killed your own market and your own hero, and made all of >>> yourselves look like idiots once again. >>> >>> --p >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bryon Bertrim [mailto:bryon@be*.co*] >>> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:56 AM >>> To: Trey; pina; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*; Cavers@Ca*.Co*; >>> Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com >>> Subject: Re: scooters >>> >>> >>> Who is copying who here George? >>> BB >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*> >>> To: <trey@ne*.co*>; "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*>; "E.N. Von" >>> <evlink2001@ho*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; "Cavers@Ca*.Co*" >>> <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:37 AM >>> Subject: RE: scooters >>> >>> >>> > >>> > By the way, I make both types of scooter now - the original Gavin and >>> > another one that is made from HDPE and is tapered at the back, only >mine >>> > really is one piece and does not have the bullshit aluminum pipe with >>> orings >>> > as a motor compartment like the "submersion", does snot have the kluge >>> > wiring like the submersion , and does not have the convoluted battery >>> > arrangement nor the ridiculous "motorcycle handle". >>> > >>> > My version is interchangeable with all Gavins I have made, and uses the >>> same >>> > internal parts, works the same way. For instance, mine has $68 cost of >>> gold >>> > connectors, my motor compartment is one with the tail, and the body is >>> hard >>> > pvc while the rest is soft HDPE. The nose keys the batteries. >>> > >>> > I made this because I am sick of strokes copying our hard work and >>> profiting >>> > from it, like the submersion guy. This version of the scooter is >cheaper >>> to >>> > produce than the Gavin, so I will be selling it cheaper, and a hell of >a >>> lot >>> > cheaper than submersion. >>> > >>> > I will also be maintaining the Gavins for our use and for those who >want >>> the >>> > sure thing at the extreme depths that we know the Gavin is made for. >>> > >>> > The only changes I am making to the Gavin are to offer the HDPE nose >for >>> > those who want it with the hard nose for super deep, and am using a >>screw >>> in >>> > reed switch if you want it to adjust the trigger more easily. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*] >>> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:28 AM >>> > To: pina; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co* >>> > Subject: RE: scooters >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > The scooters pretty much all act the same regardless of size if they >are >>> > balanced correctly. Look at the pictures of JJ and I scootering and >>towing >>> > magnum's. The big scooters have more lateral stability in motion so are >>> > actually easier and more comfortable to ride than little ones. >>> > >>> > Pina rides a magnum back to the far reaches of Manatee with no problem. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: pina [mailto:pina3@be*.ne*] >>> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:44 PM >>> > To: E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co* >>> > Subject: RE: scooters >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Just get a Gavin and DIR - no sense fluffing about with other stuff >that >>> > won't get you anywhere. >>> > >>> > --pina >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: E.N. Von [mailto:evlink2001@ho*.co*] >>> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:25 PM >>> > To: quest@gu*.co* >>> > Subject: scooters >>> > >>> > >>> > I am interesed in starting to learn to drive a scooter. Can anyone >give >>a >>> > good suggestion for a starter scooter. I have a feeling that a Gavin >>> would >>> > be quite a bit to handle for a new driver, but I may be wrong, having >>> never >>> > having the chance to see one in person. >>> > >>> > Thanks in advance for you help. >>> > >>> > E.N. Von >>> > evlink2001@ho*.co* >>> > >>> > >>> > _________________________________________________________________ >>> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >>> > >>> > >>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >>> > >>> > >>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >>> > >>> > >>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >>> For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >>> >> >>-- >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > >___________________________________________________ >GO.com Mail >Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com > > > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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