I agree, but will make them for those who think otherwise. The screw issue
is not on the scooters built by me but on the fake copies. Also, I offer
nylon or pvc noses, and they both have their issues. I now also offer HDPE
noses, and they have their issues as well.

However, you can get any combination from me with a full warranty and I will
switch it out for the other versions at no cost if you do not like the one
you get. Now what?

-----Original Message-----
From: terry michael [mailto:OEA51@go*.co*]
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 9:11 AM
To: Bryon Bertrim; pina; Trey; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*;
Cavers@Ca*.Co*; Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
Subject: Re: GI and SS to Merge


To start making the scooter in HDPE and a streamlined shroud makes no since
to me. If it were I I'd keep it the same as before but with the HDPE nose
cone and figure out some way loose the SS screws in the aluminum. They are
un-removable and have too be drilled out if you break the cheap plastic mako
handle that is crudely burned with a soldering gun to make the cable
connection. However the motorcycle grip solution is even worse in my
opinion.



-----Original Message-----
From: "Bryon Bertrim"<bryon@be*.co*>
To: "pina"<pina3@be*.ne*>, "Trey"<trey@ne*.co*>, "E.N.
Von"<evlink2001@ho*.co*>, quest@gu*.co*,
"Cavers@Ca*.Co*"<cavers@cavers.com>,
"Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com"<techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Fri Nov 02 14:55:05 PST 2001
Subject: GI and SS to Merge

>WOW, i realize this is a touchy issue and so close to home for you too. Now
>we know who gets all GIs best service.
>
>This scooter market is tiny and no one is going to get rich. Sort of like
>the dive business. Want to make a small fortune start with a large one.
This
>is one area I'm glad to see so many basement pioneers. Lets face it, the
>Gavin Scooter is not that complex and is easy to clone. Others will follow.
>I hope they drive the price way down. The most expensive part is the
Oceanic
>motor. Hell a guy down the road took his Gavin to a local high tech machine
>shop they blue printed it now he is building and selling them for 2K.
Almost
>like the open source SW market. If George really wants support he should
>publish the blue prints and the tricks of the trade, encourage everyone to
>build his own or buy parts and be happy that he was responsible for the
>design. That's what this industry needs as a true pioneer.
>
>I don't know Rod's history but he is a good engineer, and is very detailed
>about his units. He is not trying to cut corners or build a subgrade
>product. Albeit he will never have the cave experience that GI has but I'm
>sure GI is not personally hand building every component that goes into each
>unit nor has the skill and interest. Rod's abilities and workman ship seem
>high. I expect both are very good products. I have known Rod for a little
>over 2 yrs now. And he refuses to bad mouth GI, the Gavin or Halcyon, he
>makes it quite clear its not something he wants any part of. He is just to
>busy trying to put food on table like any of us. He once told me that
>Halcyon was only paying him $12 bucks a hour and he could not afford to
work
>for them. And for that meager amount no one owes anybody any loyalty.
>
>Rod is quite dedicated to building scooters. Its not some part-time hobby
>for him. He has built a full-time, full service business rightly or wrongly
>and wants to support his customers as best possible. As a customer i
>appreciate this, its no different from Halcyon when i buy a BC or dive
>light. Why should i expect anything less from my scooter manufacturer. I
can
>not understand why GI bothers. Maybe he and Rod should link up and build a
>real business. Sounds like a good partnership, I tell you we would all get
a
>better product. Only thing is GI could not be in charge of sales. He makes
a
>great VC, CEO or spokesman but he would piss off to many customers.
>
>When i was ready to buy a scooter from GI, i barley got an email answered,
>maybe a terse one liner at best. I was afraid that i would unknowing piss
>him off and never get a part or a fix. This was crazy. Why would anyone in
>his right mind pay someone to treat them this bad. There are hundreds of
>examples and references like this. Also GI and even the old WKPPers now EE
>trainers all made it quite clear that GIs first support cycles go to new
>WKPP crew, old crew came next and at the bottom of the list were the un
>knowns like me. Even Carmichael had to get Rod to repair his Gavin, GI did
>not have the time. Most are either fixing them themselves or have someone
>local fix them. And Gavins break just like SS units. Now with a little real
>competition Trey is sounding a little customer friendly. This is good.
>
>So it sounds like we should thank all of them GI, Rod and Bill Gavin. Bill
G
>did the original designs, GI took those designs and improved on them, Rod
>took those designs and improved on them, GI takes Rodney's designs, who is
>next. Every time someone pisses GI off the price goes down and the product
>gets better. COOL
>
>BB
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*>
>To: "Bryon Bertrim" <bryon@be*.co*>; "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "E.N.
>Von" <evlink2001@ho*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; "Cavers@Ca*.Co*"
><cavers@ca*.co*>; "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:34 PM
>Subject: RE: scooters
>
>
>>   George developed these scooters 10 years ago for deep, long range
>> exploration in the WKPP. There was nothing else available. He bore all of
>> the expense of developing and perfecting this tool. Initially, they were
>> only made available to WKPP members, but later other groups showed an
>> interest and extras were produced and sold to help fund the Project. All
>> expenses of the project are paid by George and have been paid by George
>for
>> ten years.
>>
>>   Rodney contacted George and Robert Carmichael about getting a job here
>so
>> he could move to the States. George arranged one for him at one of his
>> father's companies based on Rodney's experience in oz making fishing
>lures.
>> Pipewelders is one of his fathers companies. Robert ended up hiring him
at
>> Brownies. Robert asked George to show Rodney how to work on the scooters.
>>
>> Rod then quit, came up with a scooter of his own, and is sitting around
>> riding on our success while producing a kluged  product that reflects
zero
>> understanding of what makes scooters good or bad, and then badmouths us
at
>> the same time with complete lies and a total misunderstanding of why we
do
>> what we do and plays to an audience of whiners who like to hate George.
>Ask
>> anyone who has dealt with George on scooters or anything else directly
and
>> you will get a different answer that the crap that the losers put on
here.
>> Ask any of the more than 200 people who own one of George's scooters, and
>> ask any of the people who have bullshit clones that fail to perform like
a
>> Gavin.
>>
>> Then, to add insult to injury . either Rod or one of his little buddies
>put
>> out a series of anonymous posts making all kinds of false claims about
>> George and his scooters. That was it. George warned what he would do -
>make
>> the same thing only a hell of a lot better and cheaper, and it took him
no
>> time at all to do just that.
>>
>> Enough is enough. Some people never get the message about fighting George
>> and the WKPP and doing so anonymously or with bullshit and lies. George
>> merely had his machine shop make up a scooter looking the same ( tapered
>on
>> the end like that makes any difference ) and one piece inside and out (
>> Rodney's is NOT although he advertises that it is).  However, he solved
>all
>> of the problems of Rod's scooter and made a far improved version for less
>> money that still mates up with all existing scooters made by George, and
>> like all scooters made by George, has a lifetime warranty and superior
>> performance.
>>
>> So for those who think the submersion is somehow better, think again.
But,
>> you can get a far better version of the it cheaper, or you can get the
>> original Gavin. For those with existing fleets of gavins, these new ones
>> will mate up in all of the modular components. Once again, results talk,
>> bullshit walks .
>>
>> What happened to the hypocrite who claimed Rod had "improved" on the
>> design? Which is it, copy or improvement? make up your minds. It is
always
>> the worst hypocrites who do the loudest howling.
>>
>> The fact is you can have any scooter you want from George, Halcyon, EE
and
>> it will be made by people who have the track record to know what they are
>> doing and the ability to back it up. is there anything else you guys want
>> to fight with George, JJ, Halcyon, EE or WKPP about ? Anyone feel lucky?
>> George has two courses of action he has followed with liars and anonymous
>> bullshitters - 1) let Alton Hall handle it,  2) do something more to the
>> point. Have it either way. Sooner or later the idiots will get sick of
>> losing and shut the hell up.
>>
>> You guys only hurt one person with this - yourselves. Now you have
>scooters
>> that are superseded by a faster, superior product that is sold for less
>> money. You have killed your own market and your own hero, and made all of
>> yourselves look like idiots once again.
>>
>> --p
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bryon Bertrim [mailto:bryon@be*.co*]
>> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:56 AM
>> To: Trey; pina; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*; Cavers@Ca*.Co*;
>> Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
>> Subject: Re: scooters
>>
>>
>> Who is copying who here George?
>> BB
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
>> To: <trey@ne*.co*>; "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*>; "E.N. Von"
>> <evlink2001@ho*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; "Cavers@Ca*.Co*"
>> <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:37 AM
>> Subject: RE: scooters
>>
>>
>> >
>> > By the way, I make both types of scooter now - the original Gavin and
>> > another one that is made from HDPE and is tapered at the back, only
mine
>> > really is one piece and does not have the bullshit aluminum pipe with
>> orings
>> > as a motor compartment like the "submersion", does snot have the kluge
>> > wiring like the submersion , and does not have the convoluted battery
>> > arrangement nor the ridiculous "motorcycle handle".
>> >
>> > My version is interchangeable with all Gavins I have made, and uses the
>> same
>> > internal parts, works the same way. For instance, mine has $68 cost of
>> gold
>> > connectors, my motor compartment is one with the tail, and the body is
>> hard
>> > pvc while the rest is soft HDPE. The nose keys the batteries.
>> >
>> > I made this because I am sick of strokes copying our hard work and
>> profiting
>> > from it, like the submersion guy. This version of the scooter is
cheaper
>> to
>> > produce than the Gavin, so I will be selling it cheaper, and a hell of
a
>> lot
>> > cheaper than submersion.
>> >
>> > I will also be maintaining the Gavins for our use and for those who
want
>> the
>> > sure thing at the extreme depths that we know the Gavin is made for.
>> >
>> > The only changes I am making to the Gavin are to offer the HDPE nose
for
>> > those who want it with the hard nose for super deep, and am using a
>screw
>> in
>> > reed switch if you want it to adjust the trigger more easily.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]
>> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:28 AM
>> > To: pina; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*
>> > Subject: RE: scooters
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The scooters pretty much all act the same regardless of size if they
are
>> > balanced correctly. Look at the pictures of JJ and I scootering and
>towing
>> > magnum's. The big scooters have more lateral stability in motion so are
>> > actually easier and more comfortable to ride than little ones.
>> >
>> > Pina rides a magnum back to the far reaches of Manatee with no problem.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: pina [mailto:pina3@be*.ne*]
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:44 PM
>> > To: E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*
>> > Subject: RE: scooters
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Just get a Gavin and DIR - no sense fluffing about with other stuff
that
>> > won't get you anywhere.
>> >
>> > --pina
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: E.N. Von [mailto:evlink2001@ho*.co*]
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:25 PM
>> > To: quest@gu*.co*
>> > Subject: scooters
>> >
>> >
>> > I am interesed in starting to learn to drive a scooter.  Can anyone
give
>a
>> > good suggestion for a starter scooter.  I have a feeling that a Gavin
>> would
>> > be quite a bit to handle for a new driver, but I may be wrong, having
>> never
>> > having the chance to see one in person.
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance for you help.
>> >
>> > E.N. Von
>> > evlink2001@ho*.co*
>> >
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>> For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
>>
>
>--
>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.


___________________________________________________
GO.com Mail
Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com



--
Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.

Navigate by Author: [Previous] [Next] [Author Search Index]
Navigate by Subject: [Previous] [Next] [Subject Search Index]

[Send Reply] [Send Message with New Topic]

[Search Selection] [Mailing List Home] [Home]