Sorry I disagree, Any discussion is good. In my personal experience many of the
"chamber folks" don't know sh*t. Most divers are totally unprepared for the DCI
reality. Those silly little DAN boxes are a complete joke in my opinion and so
is the previous post with all the useless rhetoric.


-----Original Message-----
From: "Wendell Grogan"<wgrogan@dc*.ne*>
To: "Isaac Callicrate"<icallicrate@ho*.co*>
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Date: Sun Sep 30 15:27:57 PDT 2001
Subject: Re: [E-CAVERS] BIG Bull and Squeeze

>Agree
>Wendell
>
>Isaac Callicrate wrote:
>> 
>> I have replied in private to people about pushing their ideas or fourth hand
>> information on issues that they have no experience/training/insight etc. and
>> feel like this one deserves some public response.  I dont feel like dusting
>> off the ancient texts to quote specific lines but will in private if
>> neccessary.  I want to make one thing very clear, this is definately
>> personal opinion but I think most agree with this.  If you think you have a
>> serious diving or hypo/hyperbaric problem then need to seek immediate
>> medical attention.  If their is no hyperbaric unit in the area have your
>> physician call Duke or NEDU.  If you think because you are a TDI Deep Air,
>> IANTD Tech Scooter, EMT, DMT, Paramedic, Firefighter, Smokejumper,
>> Paratrooper, Chamber Tender, Italian Free-Diver, PADI Combat Swimmer, Rescue
>> Swimmer,MS Certified Systems Engineer, Rescue Diver, American Oilfield
>> Diver,and on and on, that you have the right to give medical consultation,
>> or develop treatment protocol you are big time wrong and deserve all the
>> liability that you just earned. Differential diagnosis - screw you.  Good
>> Samaritan my ass.  If you dont have the certificate on the wall of your
>> clinic shut your c--k holsters. You arent helping anyone.  If you are not a
>> UMO, DMO, UHO, HMO, or whatever, someone with diving/hyperbaric medicine
>> specialty/sub, than you need to say to the diver that reports not feeling
>> right, "buddy, you should go to a chamber" - THE END- Giving the guy a Neuro
>> is a nicety for the chamber folks but chances are that your neuro isnt going
>> to be worth a shit as a baseline so save the time, call EMS, and give them
>> your O2 bottle.  I am sure that there are plenty of folks waiting to scream
>> their exceptions about how they were to far out for USCG response and they
>> developed In Water Recompression protocol with a Full Face Mask and two 72s
>> of O2 - Good job-.  We do make dives where someone on site is going to have
>> to make the call and I hope they are educated enough to make the right one.
>> You would have to press me pretty hard to put a SCUBA diver back in the
>> water after reporting symptoms.  If you are within cell phone range of a
>> country that speaks English, talk to someone that knows better than you or
>> your instructor.  If you are doing serious expedition/scientific diving you
>> better already have someone available.  I have seen some really astute
>> speculations and guestimations about diagnosis/treatment in the last few
>> days.  Im sorry Ive been working and havent had a chance to respond.
>> Between Navy Dive Manual, NEDU Reports and DAN/Duke research you should have
>> enough available information to at least give some factual advice no matter
>> how inappropriate you speaking about it is. Please run to the library or
>> phone to find some quotes to devalue the credibility of what I am saying.
>> At least you will be educating yourself and others instead of causing
>> injuries.
>> 
>> >From: Jsuw@ao*.co*
>> >To: E-CAVERS@ya*.co*, FLTechDiver@mikey.net
>> >Subject: Re: [E-CAVERS] BIG Bull and Squeeze
>> >Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:52:08 EDT
>> >
>> >'Symptoms persisted on or off O2, which is what's
>> >called an O2 challenge that is what all but eliminates
>> >DCS not a neuro exam.'
>> >
>> >Cliff:
>> >
>> >Oxygen challenge?
>> >
>> >One way to differentiate between AGE and DCS is that AGE may improve
>> >quickly
>> >with the use of O2.  For example, an unconscious victim may regain
>> >consciousness.  DCS is progressive, meaning its symptoms may get worse over
>> >time, and may NOT show improvement with the use of O2.  (Even though oxygen
>> >is beneficial as a first aid treatment.)
>> >
>> >You may be confusing the "oxygen challenge", whatever that is, with a test
>> >of
>> >pressure.  The test of pressure is done in a chamber when DCS is suspected.
>> >If the victim feels better when pressurized to say, 30', then the pain is
>> >probably DCS and NOT something such as overuse or a bruise.  If there is no
>> >improvement at 30' or 60', then the problem is NOT DCS.
>> >
>> >Among other possibilities, vertigo is often associated with inner and
>> >middle
>> >ear problems.  For example, rupturing an eardrum will allow water to enter
>> >the middle ear.  This can result in immediate and severe vertigo until that
>> >water is warmed to body temperature.  Once the vertigo passes, healing and
>> >prevention of infection are concerns that preclude diving for a short time.
>> >Other kinds of aural barotrauma may also occur.  These may require other
>> >type
>> >of medical treatment.
>> >
>> >Vestibular DCS involving the inner ear causes vertigo, difficulty with
>> >balance, nausea and vomiting.  I suspect this was what you had, especially
>> >since you did show improvement after a period of time on oxygen.
>> >
>> >Please understand that having one kind of DCS or even one kind of
>> >barotrauma
>> >does not mean you don't have another.  Vestibular DCS, or any aural
>> >barotrauma can result in permanent hearing loss.
>> >
>> >Denial is a real issue in treating DCS.   I recommend you at least call DAN
>> >to discuss what happened and get a real medical opinion.   Ideally, you
>> >should have sought treatment immediately.
>> >
>> >The information I just provided is discussed in my recreational level
>> >(PADI/NAUI) rescue diver course.  I do not have a medical background.  In
>> >my
>> >opinion, if you are going to be doing tech dives, you need to have enough
>> >background to recognize the risks, and to know the signs, symptoms, and
>> >first
>> >aid for dive injuries, not to mention emergency management and prevention.
>> >Actually, that is true regardless of the diving you choose to do, but since
>> >the risks are greater in technical diving, it is even more necessary to
>> >have
>> >the proper understanding.
>> >
>> >Best,
>> >Jan
>> >
>> >In a message dated 9/27/01 9:26:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> >cavecliff@ya*.co* writes:
>> >
>> >
>> > > Gina, Ania, Chris Toedt, William Wolk, Ray Blanchard,
>> > > Lesley Jacques, Jo, Al, Rich Lesperance, Will, Cathy,
>> > > Wendy and Butch (William please reasure him, all these
>> > > post's he can read, but he can't type) and anyone
>> > > concerned that I missed.
>> > >
>> > > Thankyou for your concern.
>> > >
>> > > All of my previous posts were on my palm phone using
>> > > the graffiti alphabet and the tiny keyboard screen and
>> > > that fat black toothpick in the dark in the back of my
>> > > bus parked in back of a certain dive shop in deerfield
>> > > beach.  Which I explain for the simple reason that my
>> > > previous posts were a neurological test in and of
>> > > itself.  This post I'm using a KEYBOARD what a
>> > > concept.
>> > >
>> > > Name's have been omited below, by design, those who
>> > > know, don't post and don't put 2+2 together and post.
>> > >
>> > > We splashed off the boat (I the instructor and a
>> > > student)  My gas was 16/40, 50 and 100.  Planned depth
>> > > was 210ft.  I was carrying the rope to the float ball,
>> > > we got to about 170' could see the sand, no wreck.
>> > > All three of us looked, this is when I noticed the 4th
>> > > diver, or ooooooh sh.... that's a shark, a MFB Bull
>> > > shark, one guy thought he saw the wreck, my money was
>> > > on the shark, after his lead didn't pan out we headed
>> > > in the direction the shark discopeared, ah ha the
>> > > wreck. Eight minutes into the dive and a vigorous
>> > > swim, during which I let the up line go cause I wasn't
>> > > making any progress.  My max depth was 190, we did no
>> > > major penetrations and called the dive at 20mins at
>> > > about 170'.  The shark sighting made me want to stay
>> > > with the others.  The student while deploying the lift
>> > > bag, totally lost bouyancy and by the time I checked
>> > > my depth guage it read 60' I stabalized bouyancy, shot
>> > > my bag, switched to 50% added a couple minutes to my
>> > > stop and regained my composure.  The other two looked
>> > > to have reached 20' and then I saw one dragging the
>> > > other down back to about 40'.  The remainder of deco
>> > > was uneventful at 20' I switched to 100% O2.  Reading
>> > > from my slate;
>> > >
>> > > left 170'        20"
>> > >
>> > > Bouyancy event
>> > > switch to 50% (actually 54%)
>> > > Stable at 64' by 25"
>> > > Left 64'      at 31"
>> > > Left 50'      at 33"
>> > > Left 40'      at 37"
>> > > Left 30'      at 41"
>> > > Switch to 100%
>> > > Left 20'      at 48"
>> > > Left 10'      at 58"
>> > > hand over hand slow crawl to the surface.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > No problems getting on the boat, approx. 10 minutes
>> > > later the other two divers returned and my symptoms
>> > > started, Dizzyness, sat down, then sat on deck, got on
>> > > O2, laid on the deck on O2 and if you asked me, the
>> > > boat was going in circles.  No improvement on O2.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > After the Capt. docked the boat the TDI instructor
>> > > trainer, DMT, EMT chamber operator for 4 yrs for NOAA,
>> > > 4 yrs for Marathon, cohart of Hyper Dick, did the
>> > > exams(not just some guy who happened to be around),
>> > > using a cuff and stethascope checked heart, lungs
>> > > performed tests.  No other symptoms other than
>> > > dizzyness and nausea.  No pain in joints no headache.
>> > > Symptoms persisted on or off O2, which is what's
>> > > called an O2 challenge that is what all but eliminates
>> > > DCS not a neuro exam.  I also explained my symptoms to
>> > > my previous TDI tech instructor(adv nitrox and deco)
>> > > and the dive shop owner where I was parked. BTW I was
>> > > driven in my bus by the student, I couldn't stand.
>> > > All who heard or saw the facts first hand, agreed.
>> > > Mild barotramua to inner ear.  Two hrs after 95%
>> > > recovery.  Now 32 hours later I feel 100%, I drove the
>> > > bus from Deerfield Beach up 95 and over to Orlando, no
>> > > symptoms, no pain
>> > >
>> > > It's over, I'm fine.  LL post away...
>> > >
>> > > Cliff
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > =====
>> > > Clifford Sifton
>> > >
>> > > Two dreams "to discover a new cave system" AND
>> > > "to discover a new wreck"
>> > >
>> > > 215-432-8007
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >Visit my web page with underwater and other photos at
>> >http://members.aol.com/jsuw3/index.html
>> >
>> 
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