>.No, it's apples and oranges.

Agreed.

> But to say on a public forum that you dive
>off-shore charter boats with one and can break it down with a screw driver

I can.  So can you.

>and can get all the parts at the local seven-eleven PADI dive shop is

No.  But they are readily available and if you are traveling you carry spare
parts.

>misleading and could give people the wrong impression.

Who am I misleading?

>In truth you (as in >you) can't even get past the shroud.

You have no clue what I can or cannot do or get past.

>The Gavin is a balanced work of art once

The art is in its simplicity.

 >it's set-up and not a poor mans jury rigger rental production scooter like
the >Decor. Again it's apples and oranges and maybe a little silly to try
>comparisons..:-)

Agreed.

>It is possible to set-up the Decor better however but >mounting yourself on
>top with a >carabineer is not the better way in my opinion. The carabineer
is >stroke sh*t. >Thanks for the good debate..:-)

Agreed.

I'm not going to even attempt to try and explain the details of this but
suffice it to say that you can service the trigger mechanism, the props,
drop the motor, change the relay, and reed switch with a screw driver.  The
only other tools you might need are a small wrench and a soldering iron and
you can pretty much fix anything.   You seem to be hung up on the shroud
which requires no service unless you break it, it which case fate has
removed it for you.  I have serviced mine on a boat in the ocean and in the
jungles of the Yucatan.  All minor stuff of course, but when I used a Mako,
if it had the same problem, it was put away for the duration of the trip.
When I traveled to Mexico for a month, I carried a spare motor, props, relay
and reed switch.  Locally, I carry relay, props and reed switch.  Unless I
drop it off a cliff, it is field repairable.

None of this is to berate the Dacor.  Like you said, apples and oranges....

Regards.

Joe




-----Original Message-----
From: "Joseph Citelli"<joe@po*.co*>
To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>, "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*>,
"Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com
Date: Sun Aug 19 22:14:09 PDT 2001
Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor

>OK - The Mako and Dacor are better than the Gavin.  You can't take it apart
>with a screw driver and I made all this stuff up.  I don't own any scooters
>and I never dive them.  I don't know how to fix one and unless you have a
>degree in mechanical engineering, you could never figure out how to remove
a
>SS screw from aluminum.
>
>Now I realize that all of these hi tech things such as screw removal might
>seem overwhelming to you but it really is not that difficult.....oops!
>There I go again making stuff up!  Excuse me... It can't be done....you are
>correct.
>
>Regards.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>
>To: Joseph Citelli <joe@po*.co*>; Jim Cobb
><cobber@ci*.co*>; Michael J. Blitch <mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>;
><techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 10:31 PM
>Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>
>
>> >Except for the scooter specific parts (Mako) -shrouds etc. - every thing
>> >else is readily available through normal supply houses.  There are no
>> >"exotic" parts in them and they can be easily disassembled for in the
>field
>> >repair wth a screwdriver.
>>
>> More bullsh*t, the parts are all stock from other stock DPV parts mostly
>mako. Next you have to figure exactly what parts you have and then track
>them down yourself there are no scams or parts catalog available yet.
What's
>not from stock parts is custom and needs to be machined. The screwdriver
>joke could almost work except that to get the shroud off you'd need a drill
>press and tap set especially if you're diving in salt water the SS screws
>mounted into the aluminum that holds it in place are striped. Give it a try
>big boy let us know how it goes. Good debate thanks.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Joseph Citelli"<joe@po*.co*>
>> To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>, "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*>,
>"Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> Date: Sun Aug 19 21:21:28 PDT 2001
>> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>>
>> >Actually, just the opposite is true.  (Except for the weight.  A Gavin
>short
>> >body is about 80 lbs.  A Mako is close to that (~70) and I can't speak
>for
>> >the Dacor.)
>> >
>> >Except for the scooter specific parts (Mako) -shrouds etc. - every thing
>> >else is readily available through normal supply houses.  There are no
>> >"exotic" parts in them and they can be easily disassembled for in the
>field
>> >repair wth a screwdriver.
>> >
>> >As far as hassel on a charter, the footprint is the shroud diameter.
>> >Excepting the Farrallon, they are all about the same.  I have taken mine
>to
>> >the Yucatan by  plane as well as to the Doria.  I use it routinely on
>> >charters from a 6 pak to a 12 passenger dive boat.  It is no more
problem
>to
>> >carry or transport than any other scooter and is far more reliable and
>depth
>> >tolerant.
>> >
>> >Take apart a Mako and take apart a Gavin.  You will barely have the
>> >batteries out of the Mako and the Gavin will be field stripped and
>> >reassembled.
>> >
>> >Other than that, we agree.  :-)))
>> >
>> >Joe
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>
>> >To: Joe <joe@po*.co*>; Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>;
>Michael
>> >J. Blitch <mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> >Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:36 PM
>> >Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>> >
>> >
>> >> >Properly maintained, these scooters are bullet proof and can go
>anywhere.
>> >>
>> >> Joe, the canister scooters are a hell of a lot heavier and bigger thus
>> >much more hassle on a charter. They are not bullet proof and are more
>> >expensive to repair and more difficult to find parts for. The rest of
>your
>> >post I agree with however..:-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: "Joe"<joe@po*.co*>
>> >> To: "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*>, "terry
michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>,
>> >"Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> >> Date: Wed Aug 22 19:17:52 PDT 2001
>> >> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>> >>
>> >> >>but I simply cannot imagine stepping off a dive boat with a 5' drop
>with
>> >> >stages >and a friggin Gavin held out in front of me.
>> >> >
>> >> >Why?  I do it all the time.
>> >> >
>> >> >You hold it by the strap under the nose cone, lift it a bit, step off
>the
>> >> >boat and pull the it foward and down.  The scooter goes nose first
>into
>> >the
>> >> >water and winds up under you.  Since it is tethered to you already,
>you
>> >> >release the strap when you hit the water, grab the handle and go all
>in
>> >one
>> >> >fluid motion.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Yes, the shroud clip is unabashed strokery, no doubt about it, but
>it
>> >> >works well >for us.
>> >> >
>> >> >Am I detecting a bit of personal preference here?  :-)
>> >> >
>> >> >A neutrally balanced scooter on a tow rope of proper length is the
way
>to
>> >> >go.  On deco or in a cave, wreck or anywhere else the scooter is just
>> >> >"there" but out of your way.  You simply place it where you want and
>it
>> >> >pretty much stays put until you move.
>> >> >
>> >> >> After trying both systems I am not satisfied with the Gavin/tow
>rope...
>> >> >
>> >> >Most likely you did not have the proper length tow rope.  It needs to
>be
>> >> >adjusted for each persons arm length.  Even an inch out of position
>will
>> >> >affect the operation of the scooter.
>> >> >
>> >> >Properly maintained, these scooters are bullet proof and can go
>anywhere.
>> >> >
>> >> >Joe
>> >> >
>> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>
>> >> >To: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>; Michael J. Blitch
>> >> ><mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> >> >Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:40 AM
>> >> >Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Yes, I've tried a Gavin. They are excellent scooters, they are big,
>> >heavy
>> >> >> and built like a tank. Yes they pull like a freight train and yes
>the
>> >most
>> >> >> efficient way to rig is using the tow rope setup.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The question for you have *you* tried it both ways? Have you tried
a
>> >> >shroud
>> >> >> clip D/A? Yes, the shroud clip is unabashed strokery, no doubt
about
>> >it,
>> >> >but
>> >> >> it works well for us.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> After trying both systems I am not satisfied with the Gavin/tow
rope
>> >> >> solution for techdiving. Any more than I would take a rebreather
>wreck
>> >> >> diving. The Gavin is ideal for cavers and a nice machine but it is
>too
>> >> >heavy
>> >> >> to deal with for our style of diving, IMHO.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Now maybe I'm an old guy with a bad back, but I simply cannot
>imagine
>> >> >> stepping off a dive boat with a 5' drop with stages and a friggin
>Gavin
>> >> >held
>> >> >> out in front of me.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>    Jim
>> >> >>
>> >>
>  -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>  Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > From: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>
>> >> >> > Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:27:59 -0700 (PDT)
>> >> >> > To: "Michael J. Blitch" <mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>,
>> >> >techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I agree, in my opinion mounting a carabineer to ride on top of
the
>> >Decor
>> >> >dpv
>> >> >> > is the silliest strokery I've seen come out of this list in a
long
>> >time.
>> >> >> > Simply burn a couple of holes in the shroud and then tie in a
bolt
>> >snap.
>> >> >Then
>> >> >> > position yourself behind and just above the prop wash.
>> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> > From: "Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>
>> >> >> > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> >> >> > Date: Tue Aug 21 06:12:01 PDT 2001
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:08:18 -0400, you wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Around here we usually dive
>> >> >> >>> with the boat attached to the wreck with varying amounts of
>current
>> >> >and
>> >> >> >>> don't have the time to screw around on the surface.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Around here we dive with usually nothing but a strong current
and
>> >have
>> >> >> >> less time to dick around than you do. You have time to fumble
>with
>> >> >> >> stuff and then leisurely follow the anchor.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> While the tow harness seen on cave expeditionary scooters are
>great
>> >> >for the
>> >> >> >>> long haul they are a pain for this use. With the scooter
clipped
>> >off
>> >> >at the
>> >> >> >>> shroud you have instant access to the unit without having to
>> >position
>> >> >it
>> >> >> >>> first.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> How often have you tried this? We did 4 drops to 250+ this
>weekend
>> >> >> >> several last weekend, and dozens of others over the past few
>months.
>> >> >> >> The scooters that we use are Gavins and the cord length is
enough
>to
>> >> >> >> have it at arms length. When exiting the boat, it is clipped in
>and
>> >> >> >> being held by one hand. Hit the water and it is just as
>immediately
>> >> >> >> available.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> With a D/A it can actually pull you sideways from the waist if
>you
>> >> >> >>> want. In this case the forward mounted handles of the Dacor are
>an
>> >> >asset.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> This leads to the question of ....why? Doing something like this
>is
>> >> >> >> going to strain the motor and start killing the batteries.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> But if you are doing a long cruise, like in a cave, the tow
line
>is
>> >> >superior
>> >> >> >>> for comfort, but this is usually not the case with wreckers. We
>use
>> >> >the
>> >> >> >>> scooter in short bursts to hop around to different parts of the
>> >wreck.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The tow cord is just as much an asset as anything else, if not
>more.
>> >> >> >> When you don't need the scooter and want to be close to the
>bottom
>> >> >> >> (i.e. looking for artifacts or lobster) then you do not want
them
>> >damn
>> >> >> >> thing under you continuously dragging. My scooter is just barely
>> >> >> >> positive in saltwater and I will just move it to the side until
>it
>> >is
>> >> >> >> needed. I want something that is not going to be in the way but
>> >> >> >> provides the burn time and depth I need. When you start keeping
>it
>> >in
>> >> >> >> close, you are going to start getting all kinds of crap caught
in
>> >the
>> >> >> >> props, even with the damn guard. Just ask JT. Keeping the tow
>cord
>> >too
>> >> >> >> short also ads a hell of a lot more drag.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> The single battery of A/D makes it lightweight enough to be an
>> >> >attached part
>> >> >> >>> of your gear. It's no problem to change batteries between
dives,
>in
>> >> >fact
>> >> >> >>> that is preferable to carrying 2 or more batteries at once,
>having
>> >to
>> >> >hump
>> >> >> >>> these batteries on and off the dive boat. As far as pulling
>power I
>> >> >have no
>> >> >> >>> problem hauling all my stuff plus another tech diver behind me
>with
>> >an
>> >> >A/D,
>> >> >> >>> and have done it several times.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Single battery of the Gavin short tube provides me with more
than
>an
>> >> >> >> hours burn time. You're getting too short a burn time since
>you're
>> >> >> >> drawing a hell of a lot more amps literally dragging yourself
>> >around.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Don't short change yourself. The short cords and short battery
>life
>> >> >> >> becomes too much of a liability for anything more serious than
60
>> >foot
>> >> >> >> reef dives. When doing that dive, I'll pull out a Torpedo or my
>old
>> >> >> >> Mako. Anything else, then you need what works.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord:
>> >> >> >> 222:  I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to
>be a
>> >> >little
>> >> >> >> too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I
will
>> >not
>> >> >at some
>> >> >> >> subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent
>> >> >fools?!"
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>> >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>> >> >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ___________________________________________________
>> >> >> > GO.com Mail
>> >> >> > Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>> >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.

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