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From us strokes to you stud Gavin guys, this page ought to drive you
crazy;
http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/Dacor/variations.htm
Strokin' it in VaBch-
Jim
On Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 11:44 AM, terry michael wrote:
> No, it's apples and oranges. But to say on a public forum that you dive
> off-shore charter boats with one and can break it down with a screw
> driver and can get all the parts at the local seven-eleven PADI dive
> shop is misleading and could give people the wrong impression. In truth
> you (as in you) can't even get past the shroud. The Gavin is a balanced
> work of art once it's set-up and not a poor mans jury rigger rental
> production scooter like the Decor. Again it's apples and oranges and
> maybe a little silly to try comparisons..:-) It is possible to set-up
> the Decor better however but mounting yourself on top with a carabineer
> is not the better way in my opinion. The carabineer is stroke sh*t.
> Thanks for the good debate..:-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Joseph Citelli"<joe@po*.co*>
> To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>, "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*>,
> "Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Date: Sun Aug 19 22:14:09 PDT 2001
> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>
>> OK - The Mako and Dacor are better than the Gavin. You can't take it
>> apart
>> with a screw driver and I made all this stuff up. I don't own any
>> scooters
>> and I never dive them. I don't know how to fix one and unless you
>> have a
>> degree in mechanical engineering, you could never figure out how to
>> remove a
>> SS screw from aluminum.
>>
>> Now I realize that all of these hi tech things such as screw removal
>> might
>> seem overwhelming to you but it really is not that difficult.....oops!
>> There I go again making stuff up! Excuse me... It can't be
>> done....you are
>> correct.
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>
>> To: Joseph Citelli <joe@po*.co*>; Jim Cobb
>> <cobber@ci*.co*>; Michael J. Blitch <mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>;
>> <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 10:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>>
>>
>>>> Except for the scooter specific parts (Mako) -shrouds etc. - every
>>>> thing
>>>> else is readily available through normal supply houses. There are no
>>>> "exotic" parts in them and they can be easily disassembled for in the
>> field
>>>> repair wth a screwdriver.
>>>
>>> More bullsh*t, the parts are all stock from other stock DPV parts
>>> mostly
>> mako. Next you have to figure exactly what parts you have and then
>> track
>> them down yourself there are no scams or parts catalog available yet.
>> What's
>> not from stock parts is custom and needs to be machined. The
>> screwdriver
>> joke could almost work except that to get the shroud off you'd need a
>> drill
>> press and tap set especially if you're diving in salt water the SS
>> screws
>> mounted into the aluminum that holds it in place are striped. Give it
>> a try
>> big boy let us know how it goes. Good debate thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "Joseph Citelli"<joe@po*.co*>
>>> To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>, "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*>,
>> "Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>> Date: Sun Aug 19 21:21:28 PDT 2001
>>> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>>>
>>>> Actually, just the opposite is true. (Except for the weight. A
>>>> Gavin
>> short
>>>> body is about 80 lbs. A Mako is close to that (~70) and I can't
>>>> speak
>> for
>>>> the Dacor.)
>>>>
>>>> Except for the scooter specific parts (Mako) -shrouds etc. - every
>>>> thing
>>>> else is readily available through normal supply houses. There are no
>>>> "exotic" parts in them and they can be easily disassembled for in the
>> field
>>>> repair wth a screwdriver.
>>>>
>>>> As far as hassel on a charter, the footprint is the shroud diameter.
>>>> Excepting the Farrallon, they are all about the same. I have taken
>>>> mine
>> to
>>>> the Yucatan by plane as well as to the Doria. I use it routinely on
>>>> charters from a 6 pak to a 12 passenger dive boat. It is no more
>>>> problem
>> to
>>>> carry or transport than any other scooter and is far more reliable
>>>> and
>> depth
>>>> tolerant.
>>>>
>>>> Take apart a Mako and take apart a Gavin. You will barely have the
>>>> batteries out of the Mako and the Gavin will be field stripped and
>>>> reassembled.
>>>>
>>>> Other than that, we agree. :-)))
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>
>>>> To: Joe <joe@po*.co*>; Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>;
>> Michael
>>>> J. Blitch <mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:36 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Properly maintained, these scooters are bullet proof and can go
>> anywhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe, the canister scooters are a hell of a lot heavier and bigger
>>>>> thus
>>>> much more hassle on a charter. They are not bullet proof and are more
>>>> expensive to repair and more difficult to find parts for. The rest of
>> your
>>>> post I agree with however..:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: "Joe"<joe@po*.co*>
>>>>> To: "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*>, "terry
>>>>> michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>,
>>>> "Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>>>> Date: Wed Aug 22 19:17:52 PDT 2001
>>>>> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>>>>>
>>>>>>> but I simply cannot imagine stepping off a dive boat with a 5'
>>>>>>> drop
>> with
>>>>>> stages >and a friggin Gavin held out in front of me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why? I do it all the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You hold it by the strap under the nose cone, lift it a bit, step
>>>>>> off
>> the
>>>>>> boat and pull the it foward and down. The scooter goes nose first
>> into
>>>> the
>>>>>> water and winds up under you. Since it is tethered to you already,
>> you
>>>>>> release the strap when you hit the water, grab the handle and go
>>>>>> all
>> in
>>>> one
>>>>>> fluid motion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, the shroud clip is unabashed strokery, no doubt about it, but
>> it
>>>>>> works well >for us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I detecting a bit of personal preference here? :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A neutrally balanced scooter on a tow rope of proper length is the
>>>>>> way
>> to
>>>>>> go. On deco or in a cave, wreck or anywhere else the scooter is
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> "there" but out of your way. You simply place it where you want
>>>>>> and
>> it
>>>>>> pretty much stays put until you move.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After trying both systems I am not satisfied with the Gavin/tow
>> rope...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most likely you did not have the proper length tow rope. It needs
>>>>>> to
>> be
>>>>>> adjusted for each persons arm length. Even an inch out of position
>> will
>>>>>> affect the operation of the scooter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Properly maintained, these scooters are bullet proof and can go
>> anywhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>
>>>>>> To: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>; Michael J. Blitch
>>>>>> <mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:40 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I've tried a Gavin. They are excellent scooters, they are
>>>>>>> big,
>>>> heavy
>>>>>>> and built like a tank. Yes they pull like a freight train and yes
>> the
>>>> most
>>>>>>> efficient way to rig is using the tow rope setup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The question for you have *you* tried it both ways? Have you
>>>>>>> tried a
>>>>>> shroud
>>>>>>> clip D/A? Yes, the shroud clip is unabashed strokery, no doubt
>>>>>>> about
>>>> it,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> it works well for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After trying both systems I am not satisfied with the Gavin/tow
>>>>>>> rope
>>>>>>> solution for techdiving. Any more than I would take a rebreather
>> wreck
>>>>>>> diving. The Gavin is ideal for cavers and a nice machine but it is
>> too
>>>>>> heavy
>>>>>>> to deal with for our style of diving, IMHO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now maybe I'm an old guy with a bad back, but I simply cannot
>> imagine
>>>>>>> stepping off a dive boat with a 5' drop with stages and a friggin
>> Gavin
>>>>>> held
>>>>>>> out in front of me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>
>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:27:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>>> To: "Michael J. Blitch" <mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>,
>>>>>> techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree, in my opinion mounting a carabineer to ride on top of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>> Decor
>>>>>> dpv
>>>>>>>> is the silliest strokery I've seen come out of this list in a
>>>>>>>> long
>>>> time.
>>>>>>>> Simply burn a couple of holes in the shroud and then tie in a
>>>>>>>> bolt
>>>> snap.
>>>>>> Then
>>>>>>>> position yourself behind and just above the prop wash.
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: "Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>
>>>>>>>> To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>>>>>>> Date: Tue Aug 21 06:12:01 PDT 2001
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:08:18 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Around here we usually dive
>>>>>>>>>> with the boat attached to the wreck with varying amounts of
>> current
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> don't have the time to screw around on the surface.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Around here we dive with usually nothing but a strong current
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> less time to dick around than you do. You have time to fumble
>> with
>>>>>>>>> stuff and then leisurely follow the anchor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> While the tow harness seen on cave expeditionary scooters are
>> great
>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>>>> long haul they are a pain for this use. With the scooter
>>>>>>>>>> clipped
>>>> off
>>>>>> at the
>>>>>>>>>> shroud you have instant access to the unit without having to
>>>> position
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How often have you tried this? We did 4 drops to 250+ this
>> weekend
>>>>>>>>> several last weekend, and dozens of others over the past few
>> months.
>>>>>>>>> The scooters that we use are Gavins and the cord length is
>>>>>>>>> enough
>> to
>>>>>>>>> have it at arms length. When exiting the boat, it is clipped in
>> and
>>>>>>>>> being held by one hand. Hit the water and it is just as
>> immediately
>>>>>>>>> available.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> With a D/A it can actually pull you sideways from the waist if
>> you
>>>>>>>>>> want. In this case the forward mounted handles of the Dacor are
>> an
>>>>>> asset.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This leads to the question of ....why? Doing something like this
>> is
>>>>>>>>> going to strain the motor and start killing the batteries.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But if you are doing a long cruise, like in a cave, the tow
>>>>>>>>>> line
>> is
>>>>>> superior
>>>>>>>>>> for comfort, but this is usually not the case with wreckers. We
>> use
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> scooter in short bursts to hop around to different parts of the
>>>> wreck.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The tow cord is just as much an asset as anything else, if not
>> more.
>>>>>>>>> When you don't need the scooter and want to be close to the
>> bottom
>>>>>>>>> (i.e. looking for artifacts or lobster) then you do not want
>>>>>>>>> them
>>>> damn
>>>>>>>>> thing under you continuously dragging. My scooter is just barely
>>>>>>>>> positive in saltwater and I will just move it to the side until
>> it
>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> needed. I want something that is not going to be in the way but
>>>>>>>>> provides the burn time and depth I need. When you start keeping
>> it
>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> close, you are going to start getting all kinds of crap caught
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> props, even with the damn guard. Just ask JT. Keeping the tow
>> cord
>>>> too
>>>>>>>>> short also ads a hell of a lot more drag.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The single battery of A/D makes it lightweight enough to be an
>>>>>> attached part
>>>>>>>>>> of your gear. It's no problem to change batteries between
>>>>>>>>>> dives,
>> in
>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>>>> that is preferable to carrying 2 or more batteries at once,
>> having
>>>> to
>>>>>> hump
>>>>>>>>>> these batteries on and off the dive boat. As far as pulling
>> power I
>>>>>> have no
>>>>>>>>>> problem hauling all my stuff plus another tech diver behind me
>> with
>>>> an
>>>>>> A/D,
>>>>>>>>>> and have done it several times.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Single battery of the Gavin short tube provides me with more
>>>>>>>>> than
>> an
>>>>>>>>> hours burn time. You're getting too short a burn time since
>> you're
>>>>>>>>> drawing a hell of a lot more amps literally dragging yourself
>>>> around.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don't short change yourself. The short cords and short battery
>> life
>>>>>>>>> becomes too much of a liability for anything more serious than
>>>>>>>>> 60
>>>> foot
>>>>>>>>> reef dives. When doing that dive, I'll pull out a Torpedo or my
>> old
>>>>>>>>> Mako. Anything else, then you need what works.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord:
>>>>>>>>> 222: I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to
>> be a
>>>>>> little
>>>>>>>>> too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>> not
>>>>>> at some
>>>>>>>>> subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent
>>>>>> fools?!"
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>>>>>>>>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>>>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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