No, it's apples and oranges. But to say on a public forum that you dive
off-shore charter boats with one and can break it down with a screw driver and
can get all the parts at the local seven-eleven PADI dive shop is misleading
and could give people the wrong impression. In truth you (as in you) can't even
get past the shroud. The Gavin is a balanced work of art once it's set-up and
not a poor mans jury rigger rental production scooter like the Decor. Again
it's apples and oranges and maybe a little silly to try comparisons..:-) It is
possible to set-up the Decor better however but mounting yourself on top with a
carabineer is not the better way in my opinion. The carabineer is stroke sh*t.
Thanks for the good debate..:-)

-----Original Message-----
From: "Joseph Citelli"<joe@po*.co*>
To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>, "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*>, "Michael
J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com
Date: Sun Aug 19 22:14:09 PDT 2001
Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor

>OK - The Mako and Dacor are better than the Gavin.  You can't take it apart
>with a screw driver and I made all this stuff up.  I don't own any scooters
>and I never dive them.  I don't know how to fix one and unless you have a
>degree in mechanical engineering, you could never figure out how to remove a
>SS screw from aluminum.
>
>Now I realize that all of these hi tech things such as screw removal might
>seem overwhelming to you but it really is not that difficult.....oops!
>There I go again making stuff up!  Excuse me... It can't be done....you are
>correct.
>
>Regards.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>
>To: Joseph Citelli <joe@po*.co*>; Jim Cobb
><cobber@ci*.co*>; Michael J. Blitch <mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>;
><techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 10:31 PM
>Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>
>
>> >Except for the scooter specific parts (Mako) -shrouds etc. - every thing
>> >else is readily available through normal supply houses.  There are no
>> >"exotic" parts in them and they can be easily disassembled for in the
>field
>> >repair wth a screwdriver.
>>
>> More bullsh*t, the parts are all stock from other stock DPV parts mostly
>mako. Next you have to figure exactly what parts you have and then track
>them down yourself there are no scams or parts catalog available yet. What's
>not from stock parts is custom and needs to be machined. The screwdriver
>joke could almost work except that to get the shroud off you'd need a drill
>press and tap set especially if you're diving in salt water the SS screws
>mounted into the aluminum that holds it in place are striped. Give it a try
>big boy let us know how it goes. Good debate thanks.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Joseph Citelli"<joe@po*.co*>
>> To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>, "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*>,
>"Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> Date: Sun Aug 19 21:21:28 PDT 2001
>> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>>
>> >Actually, just the opposite is true.  (Except for the weight.  A Gavin
>short
>> >body is about 80 lbs.  A Mako is close to that (~70) and I can't speak
>for
>> >the Dacor.)
>> >
>> >Except for the scooter specific parts (Mako) -shrouds etc. - every thing
>> >else is readily available through normal supply houses.  There are no
>> >"exotic" parts in them and they can be easily disassembled for in the
>field
>> >repair wth a screwdriver.
>> >
>> >As far as hassel on a charter, the footprint is the shroud diameter.
>> >Excepting the Farrallon, they are all about the same.  I have taken mine
>to
>> >the Yucatan by  plane as well as to the Doria.  I use it routinely on
>> >charters from a 6 pak to a 12 passenger dive boat.  It is no more problem
>to
>> >carry or transport than any other scooter and is far more reliable and
>depth
>> >tolerant.
>> >
>> >Take apart a Mako and take apart a Gavin.  You will barely have the
>> >batteries out of the Mako and the Gavin will be field stripped and
>> >reassembled.
>> >
>> >Other than that, we agree.  :-)))
>> >
>> >Joe
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>
>> >To: Joe <joe@po*.co*>; Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>;
>Michael
>> >J. Blitch <mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> >Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:36 PM
>> >Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>> >
>> >
>> >> >Properly maintained, these scooters are bullet proof and can go
>anywhere.
>> >>
>> >> Joe, the canister scooters are a hell of a lot heavier and bigger thus
>> >much more hassle on a charter. They are not bullet proof and are more
>> >expensive to repair and more difficult to find parts for. The rest of
>your
>> >post I agree with however..:-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: "Joe"<joe@po*.co*>
>> >> To: "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*>, "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>,
>> >"Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> >> Date: Wed Aug 22 19:17:52 PDT 2001
>> >> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>> >>
>> >> >>but I simply cannot imagine stepping off a dive boat with a 5' drop
>with
>> >> >stages >and a friggin Gavin held out in front of me.
>> >> >
>> >> >Why?  I do it all the time.
>> >> >
>> >> >You hold it by the strap under the nose cone, lift it a bit, step off
>the
>> >> >boat and pull the it foward and down.  The scooter goes nose first
>into
>> >the
>> >> >water and winds up under you.  Since it is tethered to you already,
>you
>> >> >release the strap when you hit the water, grab the handle and go all
>in
>> >one
>> >> >fluid motion.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Yes, the shroud clip is unabashed strokery, no doubt about it, but
>it
>> >> >works well >for us.
>> >> >
>> >> >Am I detecting a bit of personal preference here?  :-)
>> >> >
>> >> >A neutrally balanced scooter on a tow rope of proper length is the way
>to
>> >> >go.  On deco or in a cave, wreck or anywhere else the scooter is just
>> >> >"there" but out of your way.  You simply place it where you want and
>it
>> >> >pretty much stays put until you move.
>> >> >
>> >> >> After trying both systems I am not satisfied with the Gavin/tow
>rope...
>> >> >
>> >> >Most likely you did not have the proper length tow rope.  It needs to
>be
>> >> >adjusted for each persons arm length.  Even an inch out of position
>will
>> >> >affect the operation of the scooter.
>> >> >
>> >> >Properly maintained, these scooters are bullet proof and can go
>anywhere.
>> >> >
>> >> >Joe
>> >> >
>> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>
>> >> >To: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>; Michael J. Blitch
>> >> ><mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> >> >Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:40 AM
>> >> >Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Yes, I've tried a Gavin. They are excellent scooters, they are big,
>> >heavy
>> >> >> and built like a tank. Yes they pull like a freight train and yes
>the
>> >most
>> >> >> efficient way to rig is using the tow rope setup.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The question for you have *you* tried it both ways? Have you tried a
>> >> >shroud
>> >> >> clip D/A? Yes, the shroud clip is unabashed strokery, no doubt about
>> >it,
>> >> >but
>> >> >> it works well for us.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> After trying both systems I am not satisfied with the Gavin/tow rope
>> >> >> solution for techdiving. Any more than I would take a rebreather
>wreck
>> >> >> diving. The Gavin is ideal for cavers and a nice machine but it is
>too
>> >> >heavy
>> >> >> to deal with for our style of diving, IMHO.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Now maybe I'm an old guy with a bad back, but I simply cannot
>imagine
>> >> >> stepping off a dive boat with a 5' drop with stages and a friggin
>Gavin
>> >> >held
>> >> >> out in front of me.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>    Jim
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>  Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > From: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>
>> >> >> > Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:27:59 -0700 (PDT)
>> >> >> > To: "Michael J. Blitch" <mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>,
>> >> >techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I agree, in my opinion mounting a carabineer to ride on top of the
>> >Decor
>> >> >dpv
>> >> >> > is the silliest strokery I've seen come out of this list in a long
>> >time.
>> >> >> > Simply burn a couple of holes in the shroud and then tie in a bolt
>> >snap.
>> >> >Then
>> >> >> > position yourself behind and just above the prop wash.
>> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> > From: "Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>
>> >> >> > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> >> >> > Date: Tue Aug 21 06:12:01 PDT 2001
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:08:18 -0400, you wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Around here we usually dive
>> >> >> >>> with the boat attached to the wreck with varying amounts of
>current
>> >> >and
>> >> >> >>> don't have the time to screw around on the surface.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Around here we dive with usually nothing but a strong current and
>> >have
>> >> >> >> less time to dick around than you do. You have time to fumble
>with
>> >> >> >> stuff and then leisurely follow the anchor.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> While the tow harness seen on cave expeditionary scooters are
>great
>> >> >for the
>> >> >> >>> long haul they are a pain for this use. With the scooter clipped
>> >off
>> >> >at the
>> >> >> >>> shroud you have instant access to the unit without having to
>> >position
>> >> >it
>> >> >> >>> first.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> How often have you tried this? We did 4 drops to 250+ this
>weekend
>> >> >> >> several last weekend, and dozens of others over the past few
>months.
>> >> >> >> The scooters that we use are Gavins and the cord length is enough
>to
>> >> >> >> have it at arms length. When exiting the boat, it is clipped in
>and
>> >> >> >> being held by one hand. Hit the water and it is just as
>immediately
>> >> >> >> available.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> With a D/A it can actually pull you sideways from the waist if
>you
>> >> >> >>> want. In this case the forward mounted handles of the Dacor are
>an
>> >> >asset.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> This leads to the question of ....why? Doing something like this
>is
>> >> >> >> going to strain the motor and start killing the batteries.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> But if you are doing a long cruise, like in a cave, the tow line
>is
>> >> >superior
>> >> >> >>> for comfort, but this is usually not the case with wreckers. We
>use
>> >> >the
>> >> >> >>> scooter in short bursts to hop around to different parts of the
>> >wreck.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The tow cord is just as much an asset as anything else, if not
>more.
>> >> >> >> When you don't need the scooter and want to be close to the
>bottom
>> >> >> >> (i.e. looking for artifacts or lobster) then you do not want them
>> >damn
>> >> >> >> thing under you continuously dragging. My scooter is just barely
>> >> >> >> positive in saltwater and I will just move it to the side until
>it
>> >is
>> >> >> >> needed. I want something that is not going to be in the way but
>> >> >> >> provides the burn time and depth I need. When you start keeping
>it
>> >in
>> >> >> >> close, you are going to start getting all kinds of crap caught in
>> >the
>> >> >> >> props, even with the damn guard. Just ask JT. Keeping the tow
>cord
>> >too
>> >> >> >> short also ads a hell of a lot more drag.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> The single battery of A/D makes it lightweight enough to be an
>> >> >attached part
>> >> >> >>> of your gear. It's no problem to change batteries between dives,
>in
>> >> >fact
>> >> >> >>> that is preferable to carrying 2 or more batteries at once,
>having
>> >to
>> >> >hump
>> >> >> >>> these batteries on and off the dive boat. As far as pulling
>power I
>> >> >have no
>> >> >> >>> problem hauling all my stuff plus another tech diver behind me
>with
>> >an
>> >> >A/D,
>> >> >> >>> and have done it several times.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Single battery of the Gavin short tube provides me with more than
>an
>> >> >> >> hours burn time. You're getting too short a burn time since
>you're
>> >> >> >> drawing a hell of a lot more amps literally dragging yourself
>> >around.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Don't short change yourself. The short cords and short battery
>life
>> >> >> >> becomes too much of a liability for anything more serious than 60
>> >foot
>> >> >> >> reef dives. When doing that dive, I'll pull out a Torpedo or my
>old
>> >> >> >> Mako. Anything else, then you need what works.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord:
>> >> >> >> 222:  I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to
>be a
>> >> >little
>> >> >> >> too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will
>> >not
>> >> >at some
>> >> >> >> subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent
>> >> >fools?!"
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>> >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>> >> >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ___________________________________________________
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>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
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>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
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>> >>
>> >>
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