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Todd, just some semantic remarks, well , not only. you wrote : "I can't believe you think it's wise to dive the WRONG mix purely because the correct mix is not available. Remarkable." Sorry, what is "remarkable " ? That you assume I think something...? Todd Clagett schrieb: > I think you missed the point, standards and laws do NOT replace common > sense. I absolutely coincide with that. If you care about some of my thoughts about standards, laws... Laws are to protect the "uninformed", often they are aimed at some common lowest denominator. Laws in diving ? Landowners are granted the right to allow or deny access to dive sites. In some countries the depth of the dive and/ or the dive site is set by law in a relation to the divers certification. Like in France, 18m CMAS * , 30m **, 40m ***, 65m max depth for instructors or research on air; and 120m on mix. Law there is to have your gas analysis documented on the bottle, etc. Speedlimits are law as well. Standards in diving , for example , are certain procedures, or conventions, for example on using specific mixes. Transgressing the a.m. laws may cause no , or no immediate, or no permanent damage other than penalties . Transgressing a standard in a group effort in diving, like showing up with a set of wrong mixes, will not make it possible to dive. Or doing other stupid things, will not let you be reinvited. While at the same time a buddy team, for itself, may find it wise and safe to dive on poor mans mix and decompress on nitrox 32 and 80, and cut their tables. This will hinder them to get the best of their dive, and not optimum decowise, but if they do everything else right, they will be ok. That is what I pointed at with my remark "no harm done", nothing else. But I have the feeling someone expected me to write something foolish about deep air, or making the dive on the wrong mix , or leave it, so , here it is <g> Example: Commercial rec agency standards are 130 ft, 40m max for air. Let me call this a linear standard . Contributional factors having led to this standard are narcosis, oxygen issues, nitrogen issues, gas density, Co2 retention, cold, darkness, possible soft and bone tissue damage, microcirculation, among others. But an experienced diver can and should adress each of these factors differently. So someone may opt for a much lower EAD for a wreck penetration in cold water, or to achieve something requiring mental and bodily performance to be at its best . Someone who is experienced and accustomed to deep diving on air ( citing OSHA here) may be totally comfortable diving at 65m in the Red sea, when there is no current, water temp at 23°, and a vis of 40m, and with a equal buddy . Some words of caution because of possibly insufficient decompression would be wise to this divers, though. So all of these factors in reality are not a linear eqaution ( below 130= bad/ above= good) but more of a multidimensional affair, if you would adress it by geometrical means you would feel inclined to say it is not a linear graph, but some sort of bubble extended and shaped by curves representing the above mentioned factors. If a diver with a preset dive plan pokes through this bubble at the wrong place and penetrates to far, he is in danger. > The post I responded to was talking about the difficulty of getting > Nitrox in some areas never mind Trimix and my point was dive the right mix > or don't dive. I can't believe you think it's wise to dive the WRONG mix > purely because the correct mix is not available. Remarkable. You say "no > harm done", give me a break this is the only body I will get and I won't > damage it (or kill myself) doing deep air to save a few bucks. It's better > to stay on shore. You will know best what is good for you. > We will all be affected the more people do stupid stuff to get themselves > killed. Agreed. > Eventually the government will be passing laws and gone will be the > ease of mixing in your garage.....it will ruin it for all of us. Wake up. Hm, I feel what most do in their garage even now is not strictly covered by law. ( Transfilling oxgen, using standard equipment for oxygen content greater than 21 %, filling bottles with non licensed compressor, buying O-rings from local shops rather than from manufacturer) Just keep quiet, use common sense and dive safe. Matthias > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthias Voss [mailto:mat.voss@t-*.de*] > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 4:09 AM > To: toddclagett1@ea*.ne* > Cc: 'Vandit Kalia'; skipmac@co*.co*; ScottBonis@ao*.co*; > techdiver@aquanaut.com > Subject: Re: WTF is Ed? > > Todd, > in planes, parachutes, ships, there are safety standards, some of which > mandatory, and independant certifications agencies to supervise > standards. > > Standards are not as strict in diving, and of much more an evolutional > character. No harm done because the human body has much more redundant > pathways than a near broken stitch on a parachute, or a stress fatigued > rivet in a plane. > > Matthias > > Todd Clagett schrieb: > > > > Would you fly in a plane that was not well maintained or safe just because > > you wanted to fly? Would you parachute with an old parachute that you > > thought was dangerous just because you love skydiving? I don't think > > so!!!!!!!! Why would you dive on the WRONG mix, a dangerous mix......just > > because the right mix isn't available........wrong answer. You won't > > remember the fun you didn't have anyway. > > > > Dive the right mix and live to dive another day or don't dive at all. I > > don't buy the old cop out of it's too expensive or inconvenient either. > We > > spend all this money in gear and boat trips but don't invest in the > correct > > gas, pure stupidity. See what your family thinks about it. Do you think > it > > would be convenient for them if you get killed diving deep air? No way. > > > > The same things go for medical chekups (including being checked for PFO). > > We spend a fortune for safety gear and boat trips and all the neat toys, > but > > some still won't part with a few hundred bucks to checked for health > issues. > > It just doesn't make sense. Our body is our best piece of safety gear, > take > > care of it and have it checked annually. > > > > Todd Clagett > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vandit Kalia [mailto:vtb666@ho*.co*] > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 12:19 AM > > To: skipmac@co*.co*; ScottBonis@ao*.co* > > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com > > Subject: Re: WTF is Ed? > > > > Not to interrup this pillow-fight, but what Gilliam wrote was not even > > remotely similar to what you are posting here. > > > > His article, posting from memory, said something along the lines that > having > > one beer would not necessarily be an absolute "no no" - and the reference > > was to casual rec diving (ie, Scuba Diving mag's target readership). One > > beer does not *necessarily* equal inebriation or dehydration - and that > was > > precisely the point he was trying to make. > > > > As for his personal depth records, etc. - TDI the *agency* doesnt mandate > or > > even *actively* advocate deep air diving. However, the world is a lot > > bigger than just USA, and there are a lot of places where you cannot even > > get nitrox, let alone trimix. > > > > And now, back to your regularly-scheduled flame wars. > > > > Vandit > > > > >From: Skip MacElhannon <skipmac@co*.co*> > > >To: ScottBonis@ao*.co* > > >CC: techdiver@aquanaut.com > > >Subject: Re: WTF is Ed? > > >Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:37:38 -0400 > > > > > >Scott, > > > > > >The issue with TDI has nothing to do with DIR or not DIR. And I do not > > >doubt that there are some excellent instructors that teach for TDI. The > > >problem I have is with the policies of the organization and the > activities > > >of the president of TDI, Brett Gilliam. This is a man that recently > > >published an article in a national dive magazine advocating drinking and > > >diving. His argument is that a little beer does not contribute to > > >dehydration or DCS. He seems completely oblivious to the fact that > alcohol > > >impairs one's judgement (I assume you agree that diving while even a > little > > >inebriated is not safe, even for a shallow, open water, recreational > > >dive). Perhaps his attitude is understandable when one considers that he > > >has also published articles referring to pot smoking on dive trips and is > > >the leading advocate in the "dive industry" for deep air narcosis, the > best > > >drug of all. > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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