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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C1048E.69F7D000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, I don't know who you've been getting your information from, but I = can pretty much tell that it's from sources that have no idea what DIR = is all about. I sincerely believe that this is some sort of troll, but = to prevent anyone out there from being influenced by this "logic", here = goes. My sincere apologies to the rest of the list for another = installment of my rambling. >I've been looking at the DIR setup for awhile now and I have came to = the >conclusion that it's not a good setup and to me it seems like a very >dangerous layout for several reasons. OK, this is a hell of a way to open your post. I'm glad that you feel = that you have the skill and experience to judge a system that's been = proven to work in the most demanding environments in the world, without = any real first hand knowledge of it. If you don't want to draw flames, = be a bit more subtle in your approach. > >a) it goes against the majority of diving standards known today. Like = how >many total training facilities in the U.S. (yea I'm in the u.s. and = don't >give a flip about non-us stuff here) teaches this concept vs. the total >number of facilities that teaches other theories? This one's easy. There are more non-DIR shops out there than there are = DIR shops for one simple reason: DIR isn't as profitable. When you get = set up for DIR, you do it once, and you're done. Everything evolves = with your advancement--you'll never buy anything that you will outgrow. = The "personal preference" crowd can make a living off of selling someone = a new BC or computer every year, the latest "super fins" every six = months, and survive in-between on selling hose retractors, six foot long = dive knives, hose wraps, innumerable other piece of shit gadgets to hang = off of their 326 D-rings, and nitrox versions of everything that they = sold to the same poor sap last year. > >b) A lot of the 'experts' seems to rant and rave on those who doesn't = follow >them for what seems, to me, like bad business practices. It's like = someone >who has a different idea or theory is instantly >hounded/harassed/insulted/belittled/etc.. for having their own thoughts = or >ideas about things.=20 Show me an example of where someone has a better way of doing anything. > One way of looking at this is evolution didn't just >happen, it was a slow gradual step by step and update by update over a = long >period of time. What changes/update/revisions has the DIR system = undergone? Lots. The basic gear configuration doesn't change because there is no = reason to change it, but procedures are refined all the time. DIR = itself was an evolution. George and JJ didn't just get together one = night over a few beers and make this shit up. What you see today is the = result of thousands of exploration dives. > >c) Most dive outfits doesn't support the dir layout. Why is this? Is = it >because that it's not that good? Is it because that there's to many = people >turns up DEAD? Is it because of the above and below statements? =20 See the answer to "a". It's not as profitable as being a stroke, and = the resident idiot can pontificate endlessly about how "his system" = works better without having any real diving knowledge. Oh, and I don't = know who you think turned up dead from diving DIR, but how about some = examples here? I would be willing to bet the farm that the only names = you can come up with are the "doing it half-assed until later" crowd. = Breathing a long hose and buying a black drysuit do not make you DIR. = DIR is as much about procedures as equipment. Just because some idiot = leaves his buddy, breathes the wrong mix, or dives way beyond his level = of training when wearing a gear configuration that approximates DIR and = gets himself killed, one shouldn't see this as an indictment of the = system, but rather a confirmation of it. It's a package deal. DIR = should perhaps be doing it ALL right. You can't do it half way and reap = the benefits of the entire system. >From >talking to many shops about it and a lot of divers about this subject I >gather that if your looking for machoism, egotistical and the like then = DIR >is for you.=20 Actually, if you're one of the adrenaline rush, chest beating, "look at = how deep I can go" crowd, stay the fuck home. There's no room for that = in any diving, least of all anywhere near a cave. > Scuba equipment is just that, equipment. It's a tool someone >uses to achieve a desired means. You don't use a screw driver to turn = a >lug-nut. So why should I use the DIR setup in all cases? My theory is = it's >just ONE of the many tools out there that can be used but isn't useful = in >some cases.=20 What cases? Name one. > If the non-DIR equipment is really that bad then why are they >still being produced? Why are they no regulations to remove the bad = crap >and put the good crap in place? I seem to recall this being done with = some >tanks recently. You can still buy cigarettes if you want to, can't you? They've been = proven to kill and are still legal. Far fewer people are killing = themselves with stroke gear and stroke practices than with cigarettes, = but it doesn't mean it's not just as dangerous. (Tanks are regulated by = the DOT, and the CGA has industry standards, plus any manufacturer can = recall faulty goods based on liability concerns.) =20 > >D) Isn't one of the rules to not dive with non-DIR divers? It's like = if you >don't follow some rigid standards then your instantly a 'stroke'? So = what >about all these people who die while diving the DIR setup? Does that = mean >since they never surfaced they are a 'stroke'? =20 Already touched on this. The problem is that too many people think that = this is a gear thing. The gear is only part of it. >It's like the standards are >so high that it's very very difficult for anyone to maintain at all = times >but yet expect everyone to maintain them at all times. This makes no = sense. >Human nature dictates that humans are not perfect and makes mistakes = all the >time. The higher the standards the more mistakes will be made. Sadly = when >these mistakes ARE made it cost the person their life. =20 Mistakes and "acts of god" happen. Good technique and good procedures = prevent mistakes and cover your ass for when the occasional mistake = happens. That's why we dive in TEAMS. An observant buddy is paying = attention to what the hell is going on. A good team is the ultimate in = redundancy--multiple brains. If for some reason I forget to shut off a = stage bottle, my fellow team member(s) will catch it (he will also try = to figure out why I'm fucking up). If another team member's stage = regulator comes unstowed, I will catch it. Truth is, we're constantly = double checking each other, and watching each other. >Now in the >recreational community when these mistakes are made alot of the time = the >person will survive (depending on a lot of things) This leads to = another >thing. If you can't dive w/ non-DIR divers and there few and far = between in >some areas (like my area) then how the fuck are you expected to do the = buddy >system? Or are you expected to do solo and turn your odds up even more = of >not coming up alive? Compromise invites clusterfucks. 1) Don't dive with strokes. Or, don't = dive. Solo is NOT an option, and is a big way to do it wrong. =20 > >E) I've talked to some divers who felt that the DIR setup was just = totally >wrong for them, their person and their lifestyles. They felt that it = was >out of place and very hard to adjust to it. I thought diving was all = about >the comfort layer that the individual person felt. How is it that we = can >dictate how others must dress and what equipment they must use when = it's >what WE use that counts the most? <snip>. All because people are = putting >peer pressure on non-dir divers to dive the DIR setup, which in my = opinion >is totally WRONG. First of all, no one should be getting into the water unless they are = comfortable with their gear. This may mean some pool sessions. Second, = DIR is as much about your gear as it is mine. We all dive the same, so = that if there is a gear related problem, I know as much about your gear = as you do. I know how your hoses should be routed, I know how your = harness is set up, I know where your safety gear is, etc. No one is = recommending that someone go diving with gear they are uncomfortable = with. They should, instead, be getting comfortable with the right gear = and proper protocol before diving. It would be more "comfortable" for = me to sit here in front of this computer all day, however, as soon as I = send this, I'm going out to thrash myself on a ridiculous run, which = will ultimately be better for me, and make me more comfortable during = physically stressful situations in the future. =20 > >F) It would seem to me, from a business standpoint, that if you wanted = an >idea to flourish then you would cut out all the negativity/hostility = that is >generated towards the non-conforming divers and instead have = compassion, >understanding and in a caring manner educate the public as to why it's = a >'superior' method. =20 GUE educates in a caring manner. JJ teaches in a caring manner on the = Quest list. George bashes farm animals who should know better. This = isn't about a business, it's about staying alive. >This machoism attitude is depermental to a divers >health. There is *NOTHING* under that water that's worth your life = >See where this is going? Yes. Don't dive with people who say they can "handle deep air", don't = dive with people who dive to 300 feet for 5 minutes just for the hell of = it, and don't dive with people who dive breathers for no reason. Oh, = and don't dive with any idiot that claims he is the lost stepchild of = George Irvine, and looks like a stroke in the water. There are a lot of = loud mouth imposters out there. There, now you've pretty much = eliminated the whole macho element. You won't find any of it at = Wakulla. > >g) I see a lot of needless deaths cause a lot of people try to imitate = what >some groups are doing like the WKPP and enter areas, like caves, and = later >the morgue is called. =20 You mean like the Wakulla II project? This is all about a man admitting = his own limitations. If I had the opportunity tomorrow to do the 4500 = drop at Wakulla, I would absolutely refuse. I'm not ready yet. I know = my limitations, and so should anyone else who dives. The macho bullshit = is coming from the shining examples of Darwinism that get themselves = killed by diving beyond their limitations and from the pontificators who = insist they know better, not from the WKPP. > >You can call me anything you like but that doesn't hide nor stop the = fact >that I flat refuse to dive any form of DIY simply because my standards = are >to high=20 I would argue that you are simply misinformed. You're probably right, = you'll probably never dive DIR, but the whole purpose of this post was = to prevent someone else from being lead astray by your misinformation. =20 >Oh and btw, no flames please. These are my viewpoints and if you do = feel >you need to flame me then that's your egotistical machoistic approach >feeling threatened. Also flaming is a sign of non-stable and = uncertainty on >the flamers part. Nice touch. Sounds like a 12 step program. Please note that this is = not a flame, just a rebuttal to your arguments based on the facts as = they really are, and not on whatever representation of DIR that has been = given to you by your local PADI stroke. And, before you get excited and = attack my credentials, I'm not claiming to be a DIR guru by any stretch = of the imagination. I leave my chest thumping and shit talking for = work. I'm just an ordinary Joe who has taken the time and effort = required to learn and understand this system as best I can, and I take = great offense to the perpetuation of stupidity wherever I see it. Many = others, far more qualified than I am, have given their time to me, and = I'm just trying to give a little back. =20 Duane ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C1048E.69F7D000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 = HTML//EN"> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#e0e0d0> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>Ed, I don't = know who you've=20 been getting your information from, but I can pretty much tell that it's = from=20 sources that have no idea what DIR is all about. I sincerely = believe that=20 this is some sort of troll, but to prevent anyone out there from being=20 influenced by this "logic", here goes. My sincere = apologies to=20 the rest of the list for another installment of my=20 rambling.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>I've been looking at the DIR setup for awhile now and I have = came to=20 the<BR>>conclusion that it's not a good setup and to me it seems like = a=20 very<BR>>dangerous layout for several reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>OK, this is a = hell of a way=20 to open your post. I'm glad that you feel that you have the skill = and=20 experience to judge a system that's been proven to work in the most = demanding=20 environments in the world, without any real first hand knowledge of = it. If=20 you don't want to draw flames, be a bit more subtle in your=20 approach.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>><BR>>a) it goes against the majority of diving standards = known=20 today. Like how<BR>>many total training facilities in the U.S. = (yea I'm=20 in the u.s. and don't<BR>>give a flip about non-us stuff here) = teaches this=20 concept vs. the total<BR>>number of facilities that teaches other=20 theories?<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>This one's = easy. There=20 are more non-DIR shops out there than there are DIR shops for one simple = reason:=20 DIR isn't as profitable. When you get set up for DIR, you do it = once, and=20 you're done. Everything evolves with your advancement--you'll = never buy=20 anything that you will outgrow. The "personal = preference" crowd=20 can make a living off of selling someone a new BC or computer every = year, the=20 latest "super fins" every six months, and survive in-between = on=20 selling hose retractors, six foot long dive knives, hose wraps, = innumerable=20 other piece of shit gadgets to hang off of their 326 D-rings, and nitrox = versions of everything that they sold to the same poor sap last=20 year.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>><BR>>b) A lot of the 'experts' seems to rant and rave on = those who=20 doesn't follow<BR>>them for what seems, to me, like bad business=20 practices. It's like someone<BR>>who has a different idea or = theory is=20 instantly<BR>>hounded/harassed/insulted/belittled/etc.. for having = their own=20 thoughts or<BR>>ideas about things. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>Show me an = example of where=20 someone has a better way of doing anything.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>> One way of looking at this is evolution didn't = just<BR>>happen, it=20 was a slow gradual step by step and update by update over a = long<BR>>period=20 of time. What changes/update/revisions has the DIR system = undergone?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>Lots. The = basic gear=20 configuration doesn't change because there is no reason to change it, = but=20 procedures are refined all the time. DIR itself was an = evolution. =20 George and JJ didn't just get together one night over a few beers and = make this=20 shit up. What you see today is the result of thousands of = exploration=20 dives.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>><BR>>c) Most dive outfits doesn't support the dir = layout. Why=20 is this? Is it<BR>>because that it's not that good? Is it = because=20 that there's to many people<BR>>turns up DEAD? Is it because of = the=20 above and below statements? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>See the answer = to=20 "a". It's not as profitable as being a stroke, and the = resident=20 idiot can pontificate endlessly about how "his system" works = better=20 without having any real diving knowledge. Oh, and I don't know who = you=20 think turned up dead from diving DIR, but how about some examples = here? I=20 would be willing to bet the farm that the only names you can come up = with are=20 the "doing it half-assed until later" crowd. Breathing a = long=20 hose and buying a black drysuit do not make you DIR. DIR is as = much about=20 procedures as equipment. Just because some idiot leaves his buddy, = breathes the=20 wrong mix, or dives way beyond his level of training when wearing a gear = configuration that approximates DIR and gets himself killed, one = shouldn't see=20 this as an indictment of the system, but rather a confirmation of = it. It's=20 a package deal. DIR should perhaps be doing it ALL right. = You can't=20 do it half way and reap the benefits of the entire = system.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>From<BR>>talking to many shops about it and a lot of divers = about=20 this subject I<BR>>gather that if your looking for machoism, = egotistical and=20 the like then DIR<BR>>is for you. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>Actually, if = you're one of=20 the adrenaline rush, chest beating, "look at how deep I can = go" crowd,=20 stay the fuck home. There's no room for that in any diving, least = of all=20 anywhere near a cave.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>> Scuba equipment is just that, equipment. It's a tool=20 someone<BR>>uses to achieve a desired means. You don't use a = screw=20 driver to turn a<BR>>lug-nut. So why should I use the DIR setup = in all=20 cases? My theory is it's<BR>>just ONE of the many tools out = there that=20 can be used but isn't useful in<BR>>some cases. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>What = cases? Name=20 one.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>> If the non-DIR equipment is really that bad then why are=20 they<BR>>still being produced? Why are they no regulations to = remove=20 the bad crap<BR>>and put the good crap in place? I seem to = recall this=20 being done with some<BR>>tanks recently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>You can still = buy cigarettes=20 if you want to, can't you? They've been proven to kill and are = still=20 legal. Far fewer people are killing themselves with stroke gear = and stroke=20 practices than with cigarettes, but it doesn't mean it's not just as=20 dangerous. (Tanks are regulated by the DOT, and the CGA has = industry=20 standards, plus any manufacturer can recall faulty goods based on = liability=20 concerns.) </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>><BR>>D) Isn't one of the rules to not dive with non-DIR=20 divers? It's like if you<BR>>don't follow some rigid standards = then=20 your instantly a 'stroke'? So what<BR>>about all these people = who die=20 while diving the DIR setup? Does that mean<BR>>since they never = surfaced they are a 'stroke'? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>Already touched = on=20 this. The problem is that too many people think that this is a = gear=20 thing. The gear is only part of it.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>It's like the standards are<BR>>so high that it's very very=20 difficult for anyone to maintain at all times<BR>>but yet expect = everyone to=20 maintain them at all times. This makes no sense.<BR>>Human = nature=20 dictates that humans are not perfect and makes mistakes all=20 the<BR>>time. The higher the standards the more mistakes will = be=20 made. Sadly when<BR>>these mistakes ARE made it cost the person = their=20 life. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>Mistakes and = "acts of=20 god" happen. Good technique and good procedures prevent = mistakes and=20 cover your ass for when the occasional mistake happens. That's why = we dive=20 in TEAMS. An observant buddy is paying attention to what the hell = is going=20 on. A good team is the ultimate in redundancy--multiple = brains. If=20 for some reason I forget to shut off a stage bottle, my fellow team = member(s)=20 will catch it (he will also try to figure out why I'm fucking up). = If=20 another team member's stage regulator comes unstowed, I will catch = it. =20 Truth is, we're constantly double checking each other, and watching each = other.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>Now in the<BR>>recreational community when these mistakes = are made=20 alot of the time the<BR>>person will survive (depending on a lot of = things)=20 This leads to another<BR>>thing. If you can't dive w/ non-DIR = divers=20 and there few and far between in<BR>>some areas (like my area) then = how the=20 fuck are you expected to do the buddy<BR>>system? Or are you expected = to do=20 solo and turn your odds up even more of<BR>>not coming up = alive?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>Compromise = invites=20 clusterfucks. 1) Don't dive with strokes. Or, don't = dive. Solo=20 is NOT an option, and is a big way to do it wrong. = </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>><BR>>E) I've talked to some divers who felt that = the DIR=20 setup was just totally<BR>>wrong for them, their person and their=20 lifestyles. They felt that it was<BR>>out of place and very = hard to=20 adjust to it. I thought diving was all about<BR>>the comfort = layer that=20 the individual person felt. How is it that we can<BR>>dictate = how=20 others must dress and what equipment they must use when it's<BR>>what = WE use=20 that counts the most? <snip>. All because people are=20 putting<BR>>peer pressure on non-dir divers to dive the DIR setup, = which in=20 my opinion<BR>>is totally WRONG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>First of all, = no one should=20 be getting into the water unless they are comfortable with their = gear. =20 This may mean some pool sessions. Second, DIR is as much about = your gear=20 as it is mine. We all dive the same, so that if there is a gear = related=20 problem, I know as much about your gear as you do. I know how your = hoses=20 should be routed, I know how your harness is set up, I know where your = safety=20 gear is, etc. No one is recommending that someone go diving with = gear they=20 are uncomfortable with. They should, instead, be getting = comfortable with=20 the right gear and proper protocol before diving. It would be more = "comfortable" for me to sit here in front of this computer all = day,=20 however, as soon as I send this, I'm going out to thrash myself on a = ridiculous=20 run, which will ultimately be better for me, and make me more = comfortable during=20 physically stressful situations in the future.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial=20 size=3D3><STRONG> <BR></STRONG></FONT>><BR>>F) It would = seem to=20 me, from a business standpoint, that if you wanted an<BR>>idea to = flourish=20 then you would cut out all the negativity/hostility that = is<BR>>generated=20 towards the non-conforming divers and instead have=20 compassion,<BR>>understanding and in a caring manner educate the = public as to=20 why it's a<BR>>'superior' method. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>GUE educates in = a caring=20 manner. JJ teaches in a caring manner on the Quest list. = George=20 bashes farm animals who should know better. This isn't about = a=20 business, it's about staying alive.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>This machoism attitude is depermental to a = divers<BR>>health. =20 There is *NOTHING* under that water that's worth your life >See where = this is=20 going?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>Yes. = Don't dive with=20 people who say they can "handle deep air", don't dive with = people who=20 dive to 300 feet for 5 minutes just for the hell of it, and don't dive = with=20 people who dive breathers for no reason. Oh, and don't dive with = any idiot=20 that claims he is the lost stepchild of George Irvine, and looks like a = stroke=20 in the water. There are a lot of loud mouth imposters out = there. =20 There, now you've pretty much eliminated the whole macho element. = You=20 won't find any of it at Wakulla.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>><BR>>g) I see a lot of needless deaths cause a lot of = people try=20 to imitate what<BR>>some groups are doing like the WKPP and enter = areas, like=20 caves, and later<BR>>the morgue is called. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>You mean like = the Wakulla II=20 project? This is all about a man admitting his own = limitations. If I=20 had the opportunity tomorrow to do the 4500 drop at Wakulla, I would = absolutely=20 refuse. I'm not ready yet. I know my limitations, and so = should=20 anyone else who dives. The macho bullshit is coming from the = shining=20 examples of Darwinism that get themselves killed by diving beyond their=20 limitations and from the pontificators who insist they know better, not = from the=20 WKPP.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>><BR>>You can call me anything you like but that doesn't = hide nor=20 stop the fact<BR>>that I flat refuse to dive any form of DIY simply = because=20 my standards are<BR>>to high </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#000000><STRONG>I = would argue=20 that you are simply misinformed. You're probably right, you'll = probably=20 never dive DIR, but the whole purpose of this post was to prevent = someone else=20 from being lead astray by your misinformation. = </FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT=20 color=3D#000000><FONT face=3DArial><FONT = size=3D3></FONT></FONT></FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><BR>>Oh and btw, no flames please. These are my viewpoints = and if=20 you do feel<BR>>you need to flame me then that's your egotistical = machoistic=20 approach<BR>>feeling threatened. Also flaming is a sign of = non-stable=20 and uncertainty on<BR>>the flamers part.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D3><STRONG>Nice = touch. Sounds like=20 a 12 step program. Please note that this is not a flame, = just a=20 rebuttal to your arguments based on the facts as they really are, and = not on=20 whatever representation of DIR that has been given to you by your local = PADI=20 stroke. And, before you get excited and attack my credentials, I'm = not=20 claiming to be a DIR guru by any stretch of the imagination. I = leave my=20 chest thumping and shit talking for work. I'm just an ordinary Joe = who has=20 taken the time and effort required to learn and understand this system = as best I=20 can, and I take great offense to the perpetuation of stupidity wherever = I see=20 it. Many others, far more qualified than I am, have given their = time to=20 me, and I'm just trying to give a little back.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial = size=3D3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial=20 size=3D3><STRONG>Duane</STRONG></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C1048E.69F7D000-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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