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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3076929163_1193038_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Christ, I used to call people like you "bucketheads", I guess I will have to bring that term back. Take the fucking bucket off your head, Norm, and smell the roses. The fact is that this is a dangerous sport and you would truly have to have a full-time, galvanised, farm-grade, bucket thoroughly planted on your cabeza to not see that. No, people are not supposed to die but there are so many bad instrokters, bad training organization and morons, half-wits and imbeciles out there it boggles the mind. It is also amazing how people just hand cash over to these people and take absolutely no initiative to find out exactly what they are getting involved in. That you have taken the time to join Techdiver is a good first move, Norm, but the fact is that there that IANTD and TDI have very expensive insurance policies which are used to pay off the families of the people who have handed over the cash and croaked in the process. If the industry attitude was NOT "After all this is technical diving and people are supposed to die now and then." then why bother having the policies? Why even stay in business at all? This is called "rationalisation" Norm, and I see it all the time. Read just about anything by Brett Gilliam and you will see this attitude. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------- Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ From: "N.S. (Norm) Nopper" <nsnopper@pa*.ca*> Organization: NSN Lakeside Consulting Group Reply-To: nsnopper@pa*.ca* Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:30:34 -0400 To: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: "After all this is technical diving and people are supposed to die now and then." "After all this is technical diving and people are supposed to die now and then." (Some recent wisdom offered here on techdiver) Hello Everyone: I am a long time lurker on this listserver group, and until today I enjoyed the simple pleasure of sitting back and LISTENING to what people had to say here. I agree that that is a lot of garbage and flaming on this forum, but you simply have to be selective in what you read, and filter out the noise. During the 3 or more years that I have been reading the posts to this group, I have come to respect the viewpoints and advice of Trey and his group at WKPP. Like many on this list, I was very uncomfortable with the way in which Trey expressed himself. I even sent him a private email with a few words of advice on how to make his message more positive. In response, he sent me a friendly email of thanks. HOWEVER, today I am forced to conclude that Trey is absolutely justified in his communication approach. I became convinced of this when I read this little "gem of wisdom" in a recent email by Jim Cobb: "Personally I think it would be better to teach something more along the lines of its best for nobody to die in the first place, but I know that's totally unrealistic of me. After all this is technical diving and people are supposed to die now and then." (The bold lettering is my emphasis.) ARE YOU KIDDING? Mr. Cobb, please tell us that you are being facetious, and don't really believe this. Put a smiley on it. Give us a sign that you're not serious. If this is truly the philosophy that some "Diver Training Organizations" (and I use the term loosely) are espousing, then they should be shut down immediately. I took up diving back in 1990 for pleasure and relaxation. I have all of my own equipment, and I have the best (Halcyon back plate and wing, Apeks Tek 50). In all my diving, I have broken below 100 feet exactly twice, because I have no need or desire to go deeper. I enjoy wreck diving in the Great Lakes. I have no desire to enter 9 km into caves, or go to 1100 feet in depth, or push the envelope in any other way. I leave that to those who have the time and motivation to train, train, train, and re-train to learn and develop the techniques to Do It Right. I can see that we have unqualified people on this list who are trying to push that envelope. And worse, they are recruiting others - under the facade of offering advanced training - to push that envelope too. If I push the envelope and die, it's suicide. If I encourage you to push the envelope and you die, it's murder (if not in the legal sense, then certainly morally). Sincerely, N.S. (Norm) Nopper PS: For the love of God, Mr. Cobb, please tell us you didn't mean this. "After all this is technical diving and people are supposed to die now and then." --MS_Mac_OE_3076929163_1193038_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: "After all this is technical diving and people are supposed= to die now and then."</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> Christ, I used to call people like you "bucketheads", I guess I w= ill have to bring that term back. Take the fucking bucket off your head, Nor= m, and smell the roses.<BR> <BR> The fact is that this is a dangerous sport and you would truly have to have= a full-time, galvanised, farm-grade, bucket thoroughly planted on your cabe= za to not see that. No, people are not supposed to die but there are so many= bad instrokters, bad training organization and morons, half-wits and imbeci= les out there it boggles the mind.<BR> <BR> It is also amazing how people just hand cash over to these people and take = absolutely no initiative to find out exactly what they are getting involved = in. That you have taken the time to join Techdiver is a good first move, Nor= m, but the fact is that there that IANTD and TDI have very expensive insuran= ce policies which are used to pay off the families of the people who have ha= nded over the cash and croaked in the process.<BR> <BR> If the industry attitude was NOT <B>"After all this is technical divin= g and people are supposed to die now and then."</B> then why bother &nb= sp;having the policies? Why even stay in business at all? This is called &qu= ot;rationalisation" Norm, and I see it all the time. Read just about an= ything by Brett Gilliam and you will see this attitude.<BR> <BR> Jim <BR> -------------------------------------------------------------------<BR> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <B>From: </B>"N.S. (Norm) Nopper" <nsnopper@pa*.ca*><BR= > <B>Organization: </B>NSN Lakeside Consulting Group<BR> <B>Reply-To: </B>nsnopper@pa*.ca*<BR> <B>Date: </B>Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:30:34 -0400<BR> <B>To: </B>techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR> <B>Subject: </B>"After all this is technical diving and people are sup= posed to die now and then."<BR> <BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><B>"After all this is technical diving and people are supp= osed to die now and then."</B> <BR> (Some recent wisdom offered here on techdiver) <BR> <BR> Hello Everyone: <BR> <BR> I am a long time lurker on this listserver group, and until today I enjoyed= the simple pleasure of sitting back and LISTENING to what people had to say= here. I agree that that is a lot of garbage and flaming on this forum, but = you simply have to be selective in what you read, and filter out the noise. = <BR> <BR> During the 3 or more years that I have been reading the posts to this group= , I have come to respect the viewpoints and advice of Trey and his group at = WKPP. Like many on this list, I was very uncomfortable with the way in which= Trey expressed himself. I even sent him a private email with a few words of= advice on how to make his message more positive. In response, he sent me a = friendly email of thanks. <BR> <BR> HOWEVER, today I am forced to conclude that Trey is absolutely justified in= his communication approach. I became convinced of this when I read this lit= tle "gem of wisdom" in a recent email by Jim Cobb: <BR> <BR> "Personally I think it would be better to teach something more along t= he lines of its best for nobody to die in the first place, but I know that's= totally unrealistic of me. <B>After all this is technical diving and people= are supposed to die now and then.</B>" <BR> (The bold lettering is my emphasis.) <BR> <BR> ARE YOU KIDDING? Mr. Cobb, please tell us that you are being facetious, and= don't really believe this. Put a smiley on it. Give us a sign that you're n= ot serious. <BR> <BR> If this is truly the philosophy that some "Diver Training Organization= s" (and I use the term loosely) are espousing, then they should be shut= down immediately. <BR> <BR> I took up diving back in 1990 for pleasure and relaxation. I have all of my= own equipment, and I have the best (Halcyon back plate and wing, Apeks Tek = 50). In all my diving, I have broken below 100 feet exactly twice, because I= have no need or desire to go deeper. I enjoy wreck diving in the Great Lake= s. I have <I>no desire</I> to enter 9 km into caves, or go to 1100 feet in d= epth, or push the envelope in any other way. I leave that to those who have = the time and motivation to train, train, train, and re-train to learn and de= velop the techniques to Do It Right. <BR> <BR> I can see that we have unqualified people on this list who are trying to pu= sh that envelope. And worse, they are recruiting others - under the facade o= f offering advanced training - to push that envelope too. <BR> <BR> If I push the envelope and die, it's suicide. <BR> <BR> If I encourage you to push the envelope and you die, it's murder (if not in= the legal sense, then certainly morally). <BR> <BR> Sincerely, <BR> N.S. (Norm) Nopper <BR> <BR> PS: For the love of God, Mr. Cobb, please tell us you didn't mean this. <BR= > <BR> <B>"After all this is technical diving and people are supposed to die = now and then."</B> <BR> <BR> <BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </BODY> </HTML> --MS_Mac_OE_3076929163_1193038_MIME_Part-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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