>decompression on my way to the surface (and cave exit) I would probably 
>have had a pretty nasty case of the bends (most likely type II).

What are you talking about? Type II how do you figure? What kind of profile
were you diving big boy?


-----Original Message-----
From: "Dave Sams"<dsams@al*.co*>
To: "Christian Gerzner"<christiang@cc*.co*.au*>
Cc: "Techdiver"<techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Wed Jun 20 02:50:35 PDT 2001
Subject: Re: don't be silly

>Aloha Christian,
>
>Well, as to the specifics...
>
>>Dave Sams wrote:
>>(snips)
>> 
>>> I don't know about that...have watched Bird and Larry Green fail
>>> students. And, as far as I can tell, any cave diving is real diving.
>>(snip)
>>
>>That last comment is _quite_ a statement, although a generalisation.
>>Care to take it further?
>
>So, you want open water divers in relatively shallow caves just because 
>you don't define that as real diving? (I'm a manly man!) I think, if you 
>analyzed cave accident statistics, you'd find that the vast majority of 
>divers dying in caves are 1) open water certified in 2) relatively 
>shallow caves.
>
>Last time I was in a cave (this past spring), I was 1) under water (which 
>sort of leads you to believe that I *was* diving, and 2) underground 
>which implies overhead environment with no direct ascent to the surface. 
>Seems pretty specific to me. Oh, and if the dive tables and computer I 
>was using were any where near accurate, had I *not* used stage 
>decompression on my way to the surface (and cave exit) I would probably 
>have had a pretty nasty case of the bends (most likely type II).
>
>>> Granted, there are differences between the cave dives you're doing and
>>> the "recreational" cave dives that most of us do on the weekend, but at
>>> the end of the day we've both been feeling our way along in the dark.
>>
>>Again, care to take it further?
>>
>>Actually, I rather hope that "at the end of the day we've both been
>>feeling our way along in the dark" is not as naive as it sounds.
>
>Well, again, this seems pretty self explantory to me... Caves are dark, 
>no doubt about it. Normally I like to use lights, but have seem more than 
>one fail.
> 
>>> If I may so humbly ask, which agency did you first certify cave with?
>>> Forgive me, but your attitude (and agency affiliation) is showing.
>>
>>So what's wrong with that? Aren't other people entitled to an opinion,
>>just like you?
>
>It would seem that I'm not entitled to a dissenting opinion; I merely 
>asked a question. If George certed before GUE was existant, with which 
>agency did he certify? As far as attitude, calling other people stupid 
>and morons, as well as describing other agencies' training as a "joke", 
>sort of makes me wonder if 1) he suffers from an inferiority complex, or 
>2) has a vested interest in getting business for the agency he's 
>affilated with.
>
>>EVEN IF it was an agency that the DIR crowd now has not truck with,
>>can't people change their minds along the way once they know (or think
>>they know) better?
>
>Sure, anyone can change their mind at any time. I know several folks who, 
>after originally certing with NACD or NSS, went to GUE. I also know a few 
>people who trained with GUE that are no longer diving with them.
>
>I originally certed OW in the J-valve age; suffice it to say that a fair 
>amount of the training I received back then has been reconsidered and 
>revised.
> 
>>> And just for my information (I missed your explanation) what, exactly,
>>> was the new entry technique you demonstrated last fall at PeacockI?
>>
>>As follows.
>>
>>You're new here, aren't you?
>>
>>Seems you just failed TechDiver I.
>>
>>Which happens to be "search the Archives before putting hoof into mouth".
>>
>>Then you failed TechDiver II.
>>
>>Which is "lay low, listen and espy the land".
>>
>>The list probably goes on.
>
>Oh, just answer the damn question. Just like a GUE/DIR inductee, when the 
>going gets tough ad homiem attack and ignore the obvious.
>
>Actually, Christian, I had access to the original ARPA net. In reality, I 
>didn't know there was going to be a test (and I *failed* ohhhmmyygod!). 
>
>Sorry, I don't live or dive on the net. It's more a communication medium 
>for me. And, simply stated, I just plain get tired of BULLSHIT. Seems to 
>me, you DIR fellows have been spewing more than your fair share. 
>Personally, I don't give a rat's ass how deep you're going or how great 
>you *think* you are -- if you can't provide 1) substantive content (spell 
>that FACTS) and 2) persuasive argument for your interpretation of those 
>FACTS, then it's simply so much crap.
>
>Substantive criticism of agencies and instructors (including GUE/DIR) is 
>appreciated; I like knowing who to steer away from too. Character 
>assassination and name calling -- get real if you want to be taken 
>seriously.
>
>Regards,
>
>Dave
>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Christian
>>
>>> >The only thing you need for an NACD course is a checkbook and two days. It 
>>> >is a joke. The "instructors" do not themselves do any real diving , 
>>> >whereas the GUE guys do, and the majority of them are going to run you 
>>> >through bullshit dives as fast as they can so they can get on back to the 
>>> >trailer for Miller Time. 
>>> >
>>> >The one thing you can get from the NACD is a card, no matter how much of a 
>>> >clusterfuck you are, so if you can not pass the walk and chew gum test, go 
>>> >to the NACD. If you are a real basket case, go to the CDS.
>>> >  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >  From: pina 
>>> >  To: Brad, Jen, and Sam 
>>> >  Cc: Techdiver 
>>> >  Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:29 PM
>>> >  Subject: don't be silly....was....RE: Advice on NACD?
>>> >
>>> >  That is silly.  
>>> >   
>>> >  Here is the link to the GUE Cave 1 course:
>>> >  http://www.gue.com/classroom/standards/gue_cave1_student.pdf
>>> >   
>>> >  You do not need any prior cave/cavern training for this course, and if 
>>> >you have had any they will just have to un-train all the bad habits you 
>>> >have developed, and straighten the bad gear advice you received from other 
>>> >instructors.
>>> >   
>>> >  Just get the proper training the first time. 
>>> >   
>>> >  --pina
>>
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