Mailing List Archive Mailing List Archive
David
I don't know where you guys are going with the hypercapnia discussion, but
hyperventilation causes hypocapnia, not hypercapnia, for what it's worth.
Ben
David Norton wrote:
> below -- please see *
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:00 PM
> To: David Norton; Trey; Techdiver
> Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
>
> At 10:32 PM 5/29/01 -0700, David Norton wrote:
> >As far as narcosis goes, you are "reset" instantaneously as you switch the
> >gases. The gas switch triggers a avalanche effect in the oxygen window and
> >nulls the narcosis mechanism. After a period, the narcosis does reappear
> if
> >you are at a depth where it should occur.
>
> Hi David
> I'm not sure I buy that on the start of a dive, because of personal
> experience. I have all but stopped using travel gas for anything other than
> the very deep dives. I will start my dives with a mix down to 12% 02, I
> just do not breath it on the surface. The first time I stopped using travel
> gas I was much more at ease on the bottom from the start and the dives less
> stressful no odd feelings at the start of a dive, no gas switch or hoses to
> re park and less chance of a fuck up. I do not believe the body "resets"
> instantaneously. The minutes you save on deco using a travel gas are lost
> ON the DIVE because you used it. I will do the 10 or so extra minutes on
> deco and have that 2 minutes of a clear,stress free mind on the dive which
> is short enough already and I want the most out of it.
>
> *The switch is instantaneous. Medical fact. It's used almost everyday at a
> hospital here in my town. It does bring patients out of anesthesia and has
> saved lives by doing so. I personally have experienced it as I've switched
> to deco gas and published with an anesthesiologist to bring this phenomenon.
>
> >This is a handy thing and will allow a small period of clear headedness if
> >used properly. I don't know the travel mix and can't comment on the effect
> >on the diver for more than the short period of the gas switch. Depending
> on
> >the workload, hypercapia may be a more suitable explanation because of the
> >increase in gas density.
>
> Hypercapnia, is more likely to happen just after or during a workload and
> the case I speak of was already after some time had past during deco on
> heliox 16 starting at a deep depth and the switch was made at 130ft to
> nitrox 32, I think those are the mixes, lurkers on this list will correct
> me I'm sure. I do not know exactly how long it was after the switch that he
> almost passed out.
>
> *Hypercapnia is also, caused a bit by hyperventation. Ever notice how
> people take a few *quick breaths after a gas switch, like the regulator
> won't work. This could be there, too.
> *I don't know. But changing oxygen concentration in a gas mix should
> alleviate, not cause *narcosis.
>
> >The oxygen window "reset" for narcosis (incipient anesthesia) is known dive
> >physiology trait with myself as one of the authors of the article.
>
> I write no articles, just do the dives and tell you what happens to me.
>
> JT
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:14 PM
> >To: Capt JT; Brian&Kari Hunter
> >Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
> >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
> >
> >
> >
> >By the way, "travel" gases must be used carefully, and only where they fit:
> >it takes about two minutes for the effect of the last gas to wear off, so
> if
> >you are dropping, you are still "on" that mix well after you do not want to
> >be.
> >
> >JT is right on the money with this bailout thing.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:36 AM
> >To: Brian&Kari Hunter
> >Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
> >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
> >
> >
> >Hi Brian
> >Let me explain why it is good NOT not to do this and why oldtimers think it
> >is Ok to do this.
> >
> >First oldtimers use pony bottles as a bailout system with air mostly, with
> >the introduction of deep dives using trimix they believed that it was OK to
> >use the pony as a travel gas and for bailout. The whole pony bottle rig
> >takes years to master(if you ever really do) and is a sure sign you are
> >behind in the diving scene.
> >
> >Ken Clayton, who uses the rig in the worst possible way, uses the pony as a
> >travel gas with air to around 200ft and deco or bailout gas. He also says
> >that you must do deep air to do these deep dives, to prepare for narcosis
> >on these deep dives. This is all untrue. I do not do deep air and dive just
> >as deep as he has with an EAD that is not = to deep air.
> >
> >To dive with an high HE content and switch to a high narcotic mix will
> >knock your dick in the dirt. You will not be able to solve any problem and
> >have just created one.
> >
> >Example, the first dive to the wreck "Ostfrisland" depth 380ft was done
> >with a heliox mix, there is no nitrogen in that mix, but the plan was to
> >switch to a nitrox mix for deco which has a high nitrogen content. What
> >happen to one of the divers was he nearly pass out from narcosis just after
> >the switch. All the first divers to that wreck were deep air divers and one
> >out of three had a problem of "Not handling it", I don't like those odds.
> >
> >JT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 05:55 AM 5/29/01 -0400, Trey wrote:
> >
> > > Brian, first , stay away from anyone this stupid, and put his name on
> >here
> > >for all to see and avoid. Second, where does the air come from? Air is
> not
> >a
> > >natural hazard one comes across in diving. Only an idiot dives air.
> > >
> > > There is no "handling" being fucked up on air. This is like thinking
> that
> > >if you put a hand over one eye, it is ok to drive drunk.
> > >
> > > Really, in all seriousness, please give us the name of the piece of
> shit
> > >who told you this. It is hard to believe that anyone is still this stupid
> > >out there.
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Brian&Kari Hunter [mailto:sasha@ka*.ne*]
> > >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:35 AM
> > >To: Trey
> > >Subject: Re: Trimix Computers
> > >
> > >
> > >Trey,
> > >Should a person know how to deal with narcosis so if they have to switch
> > >from he to a more narcotic for emergency reasons they know how to handel
> >it?
> > >The instructor i'm thinking of taking trimix with says this is true after
> I
> > >told him I wanted trimix to stay away from deep air.
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
> > >To: <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > >Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:14 AM
> > >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Scott ,the legacy of Gilliam and Mount lies in the holding of deep
> air
> > > > diving records ( Tom was one of the "pioneers" there ) and the rest of
> > >their
> > > > "accomplishments" are not material for this list. Let's say they did
> not
> > > > know any better and so what. The thing that bothers Cobb and the rest
> >of
> > >us
> > > > is the ongoing inability and unwillingness to move onward and upward
> >with
> > > > the learning curve.
> > > >
> > > > Using their "position" of "respect" to misdirect is not now a worthy
> > > > endeavor. Failing to learn is not worthy of respect. I could go on,
> but
> >in
> > > > truth some of these guys need a good kick in the balls, and maybe
> their
> > > > hearts and minds will follow.
> > > >
> > > > I do not need respect or protection: I can argue my case successfully
> >and
> > > > they can not, because they have no case - ever. I am sick of hearing
> >about
> > > > the latest gimmick that Tom thinks is so clever that he just started
> >using
> > > > yesterday but is perfectly willing to recommend it to anyone, and as
> Jim
> > > > Cobb very accurately said, Tom has a long history of this going back
> to
> > > > square lights and so forth.
> > > >
> > > > If there is anything that I tell anyone that turns out to be bs, then
> > > > somebody come on hear and point it out - won't happen, and if I do
> > >something
> > > > which later proves to be superceded by a better way, I am the first to
> >say
> > > > so.
> > > >
> > > > The cumulative track record of IANTD and TDI is not something that
> > >commands
> > > > any respect at all, in fact, it should require jail time in my
> opinion,
> > >and
> > > > if you want a cross section of real nonsense, notice the misinformed
> > >baloney
> > > > that comes out of some of these "instructors" when they post to this
> >list.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: ScottBonis@ao*.co* [mailto:ScottBonis@ao*.co*]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:22 PM
> > > > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > > > Subject: Re: Trimix Computers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jim,
> > > >
> > > > You may recall that you and I have butted heads a number of times in
> the
> > > > past, as well as agreeing on various subjects also. But I see another
> > >head
> > > > butting coming on.
> > > >
> > > > I have on numerous occasions chastised posters on the net for saying
> > > > derogatory things about Trey. Not ever for arguing about his opinions
> >or
> > > > advice (which are usually pretty sound), but for showing a lack of
> >respect
> > > > for his accomplishments and dedication to the sport of diving. There
> > >comes
> > > > a
> > > > point that even if I disagree with what is being said, I must respect
> >the
> > > > speaker if he has earned a certain position in the community. A
> >freshman
> > > > doesn't challenge a full professor. He or she may question, but never
> > > > accuse
> > > > or direct. After the freshman has graduated and contributed to the
> > > > community, then he or she may argue.
> > > >
> > > > Now I must request that you display a greater respect for several of
> the
> > > > people in the dive community who don't happen to be associated with
> the
> > >WKPP
> > > > or GUE. Tom Mount, whether or not you agree with his dive techniques,
> >is
> > > > one
> > > > of the clear leaders and outstanding figures in the technical diving
> > > > community. He at IANTD, along with Ed Betts at ANDI, Bret Gilliam at
> >TDI,
> > > > et. al. for example, are, whether or not you choose to accept it,
> among
> > >the
> > > > true pioneers in technical diving. These people and others like them,
> >are
> > > > our teachers and have devoted major portions of their lives to
> advancing
> > > > diving techniques and making the sport safer for all of us.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps you now feel that some of the information being presented by
> >these
> > > > organizations has been superseded by new data that points in a new
> > > > direction.
> > > > This may be so. But it does not give you the right or even simply
> > > > permission, to forget that these people and organizations have
> >persevered
> > > > and
> > > > should have earned your respect.
> > > >
> > > > Trey, by virtue of his unique position as a nonprofessional whose
> > > > accomplishments, experience and contributions to the body of technical
> > > > diving
> > > > knowledge have earned him the respect of divers worldwide, happens to
> >have
> > >a
> > > > confrontational communication style. Because of his position I, and
> >most
> > > > others who wish to learn, overlook this as a personal negative. It is
> >his
> > > > way and we accept him for what he is and what he has to offer. And we
> >are
> > > > appreciative for his time and efforts.
> > > >
> > > > But make no mistake that you have certainly not earned a similar
> >position.
> > > > In my opinion, you have no business whatever telling Tom Mount or the
> > > > others,
> > > > what they SHOULD be doing. They are the teachers and you are the
> >student.
> > > > They tell you. You listen quietly, ask for more information, choose
> >what
> > >is
> > > > right for you and make your own decisions. But you do not pretend to
> be
> > >on
> > > > the level of your teachers and direct them. That is pure ego.
> > > >
> > > > Let's not forget that we live in an ordered society where true respect
> >is
> > > > earned over many years of accomplishment and service, not simply by
> who
> > >can
> > > > yell the loudest or type the most curse words into his or her
> computer.
> >I
> > > > consider myself really fortunate to have had the opportunity to learn
> >from
> > > > individuals of this caliber.
> > > >
> > > > Jim, I think that you ought to consider this carefully and perhaps
> >modify
> > > > your approach when communicating with these folks. And I need to say
> >here
> > > > that although this message is addressed to you Jim, I am actually also
> > > > speaking to a number of the other posters on this list.
> > > >
> > > > But then OTOH, this is simply one diver's opinion.
> > > >
> > > > Take care and dive safe, Scott
> > > >
> > > > Some weeks it's just not worth the effort to gnaw through the
> restraints
> > >and
> > > > scramble up out of the pit.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 5/23/01 9:12:32 PM, cobber@ci*.co* writes:
> > > > << Tom-
> > > > Maybe not but there are plenty of diveshops out there who would
> > > > love to sell some of these high margin pieces of shit and saying what
> >you
> > > > said below is about as close to a promotion as you can get. Did you
> > >purchase
> > > > yours or was it a promo?
> > > > <snip>
> > > > Tom, as I recall you used to stuff the long hose, use bungee wings,
> use
> > > > steel stages, dive deep air, etc. Don't make this mistake too. >>
> > > > --
> > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >
> >"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the
> >water"
> >Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
> > Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
> >Email captjt@mi*.co*
> >
> >
> >--
> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >
> >--
> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >
> >--
> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>
> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the
> water"
> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
> Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
> Email captjt@mi*.co*
>
> --
> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
--
Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
Navigate by Author:
[Previous]
[Next]
[Author Search Index]
Navigate by Subject:
[Previous]
[Next]
[Subject Search Index]
[Send Reply] [Send Message with New Topic]
[Search Selection] [Mailing List Home] [Home]