Mailing List Archive Mailing List Archive
below -- please see * -----Original Message----- From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*] Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:00 PM To: David Norton; Trey; Techdiver Subject: RE: Trimix Computers At 10:32 PM 5/29/01 -0700, David Norton wrote: >As far as narcosis goes, you are "reset" instantaneously as you switch the >gases. The gas switch triggers a avalanche effect in the oxygen window and >nulls the narcosis mechanism. After a period, the narcosis does reappear if >you are at a depth where it should occur. Hi David I'm not sure I buy that on the start of a dive, because of personal experience. I have all but stopped using travel gas for anything other than the very deep dives. I will start my dives with a mix down to 12% 02, I just do not breath it on the surface. The first time I stopped using travel gas I was much more at ease on the bottom from the start and the dives less stressful no odd feelings at the start of a dive, no gas switch or hoses to re park and less chance of a fuck up. I do not believe the body "resets" instantaneously. The minutes you save on deco using a travel gas are lost ON the DIVE because you used it. I will do the 10 or so extra minutes on deco and have that 2 minutes of a clear,stress free mind on the dive which is short enough already and I want the most out of it. *The switch is instantaneous. Medical fact. It's used almost everyday at a hospital here in my town. It does bring patients out of anesthesia and has saved lives by doing so. I personally have experienced it as I've switched to deco gas and published with an anesthesiologist to bring this phenomenon. >This is a handy thing and will allow a small period of clear headedness if >used properly. I don't know the travel mix and can't comment on the effect >on the diver for more than the short period of the gas switch. Depending on >the workload, hypercapia may be a more suitable explanation because of the >increase in gas density. Hypercapnia, is more likely to happen just after or during a workload and the case I speak of was already after some time had past during deco on heliox 16 starting at a deep depth and the switch was made at 130ft to nitrox 32, I think those are the mixes, lurkers on this list will correct me I'm sure. I do not know exactly how long it was after the switch that he almost passed out. *Hypercapnia is also, caused a bit by hyperventation. Ever notice how people take a few *quick breaths after a gas switch, like the regulator won't work. This could be there, too. *I don't know. But changing oxygen concentration in a gas mix should alleviate, not cause *narcosis. >The oxygen window "reset" for narcosis (incipient anesthesia) is known dive >physiology trait with myself as one of the authors of the article. I write no articles, just do the dives and tell you what happens to me. JT >-----Original Message----- >From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*] >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:14 PM >To: Capt JT; Brian&Kari Hunter >Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers > > > >By the way, "travel" gases must be used carefully, and only where they fit: >it takes about two minutes for the effect of the last gas to wear off, so if >you are dropping, you are still "on" that mix well after you do not want to >be. > >JT is right on the money with this bailout thing. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*] >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:36 AM >To: Brian&Kari Hunter >Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers > > >Hi Brian >Let me explain why it is good NOT not to do this and why oldtimers think it >is Ok to do this. > >First oldtimers use pony bottles as a bailout system with air mostly, with >the introduction of deep dives using trimix they believed that it was OK to >use the pony as a travel gas and for bailout. The whole pony bottle rig >takes years to master(if you ever really do) and is a sure sign you are >behind in the diving scene. > >Ken Clayton, who uses the rig in the worst possible way, uses the pony as a >travel gas with air to around 200ft and deco or bailout gas. He also says >that you must do deep air to do these deep dives, to prepare for narcosis >on these deep dives. This is all untrue. I do not do deep air and dive just >as deep as he has with an EAD that is not = to deep air. > >To dive with an high HE content and switch to a high narcotic mix will >knock your dick in the dirt. You will not be able to solve any problem and >have just created one. > >Example, the first dive to the wreck "Ostfrisland" depth 380ft was done >with a heliox mix, there is no nitrogen in that mix, but the plan was to >switch to a nitrox mix for deco which has a high nitrogen content. What >happen to one of the divers was he nearly pass out from narcosis just after >the switch. All the first divers to that wreck were deep air divers and one >out of three had a problem of "Not handling it", I don't like those odds. > >JT > > > > > At 05:55 AM 5/29/01 -0400, Trey wrote: > > > Brian, first , stay away from anyone this stupid, and put his name on >here > >for all to see and avoid. Second, where does the air come from? Air is not >a > >natural hazard one comes across in diving. Only an idiot dives air. > > > > There is no "handling" being fucked up on air. This is like thinking that > >if you put a hand over one eye, it is ok to drive drunk. > > > > Really, in all seriousness, please give us the name of the piece of shit > >who told you this. It is hard to believe that anyone is still this stupid > >out there. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Brian&Kari Hunter [mailto:sasha@ka*.ne*] > >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:35 AM > >To: Trey > >Subject: Re: Trimix Computers > > > > > >Trey, > >Should a person know how to deal with narcosis so if they have to switch > >from he to a more narcotic for emergency reasons they know how to handel >it? > >The instructor i'm thinking of taking trimix with says this is true after I > >told him I wanted trimix to stay away from deep air. > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*> > >To: <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:14 AM > >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers > > > > > > > > > > Scott ,the legacy of Gilliam and Mount lies in the holding of deep air > > > diving records ( Tom was one of the "pioneers" there ) and the rest of > >their > > > "accomplishments" are not material for this list. Let's say they did not > > > know any better and so what. The thing that bothers Cobb and the rest >of > >us > > > is the ongoing inability and unwillingness to move onward and upward >with > > > the learning curve. > > > > > > Using their "position" of "respect" to misdirect is not now a worthy > > > endeavor. Failing to learn is not worthy of respect. I could go on, but >in > > > truth some of these guys need a good kick in the balls, and maybe their > > > hearts and minds will follow. > > > > > > I do not need respect or protection: I can argue my case successfully >and > > > they can not, because they have no case - ever. I am sick of hearing >about > > > the latest gimmick that Tom thinks is so clever that he just started >using > > > yesterday but is perfectly willing to recommend it to anyone, and as Jim > > > Cobb very accurately said, Tom has a long history of this going back to > > > square lights and so forth. > > > > > > If there is anything that I tell anyone that turns out to be bs, then > > > somebody come on hear and point it out - won't happen, and if I do > >something > > > which later proves to be superceded by a better way, I am the first to >say > > > so. > > > > > > The cumulative track record of IANTD and TDI is not something that > >commands > > > any respect at all, in fact, it should require jail time in my opinion, > >and > > > if you want a cross section of real nonsense, notice the misinformed > >baloney > > > that comes out of some of these "instructors" when they post to this >list. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ScottBonis@ao*.co* [mailto:ScottBonis@ao*.co*] > > > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:22 PM > > > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > > > Subject: Re: Trimix Computers > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim, > > > > > > You may recall that you and I have butted heads a number of times in the > > > past, as well as agreeing on various subjects also. But I see another > >head > > > butting coming on. > > > > > > I have on numerous occasions chastised posters on the net for saying > > > derogatory things about Trey. Not ever for arguing about his opinions >or > > > advice (which are usually pretty sound), but for showing a lack of >respect > > > for his accomplishments and dedication to the sport of diving. There > >comes > > > a > > > point that even if I disagree with what is being said, I must respect >the > > > speaker if he has earned a certain position in the community. A >freshman > > > doesn't challenge a full professor. He or she may question, but never > > > accuse > > > or direct. After the freshman has graduated and contributed to the > > > community, then he or she may argue. > > > > > > Now I must request that you display a greater respect for several of the > > > people in the dive community who don't happen to be associated with the > >WKPP > > > or GUE. Tom Mount, whether or not you agree with his dive techniques, >is > > > one > > > of the clear leaders and outstanding figures in the technical diving > > > community. He at IANTD, along with Ed Betts at ANDI, Bret Gilliam at >TDI, > > > et. al. for example, are, whether or not you choose to accept it, among > >the > > > true pioneers in technical diving. These people and others like them, >are > > > our teachers and have devoted major portions of their lives to advancing > > > diving techniques and making the sport safer for all of us. > > > > > > Perhaps you now feel that some of the information being presented by >these > > > organizations has been superseded by new data that points in a new > > > direction. > > > This may be so. But it does not give you the right or even simply > > > permission, to forget that these people and organizations have >persevered > > > and > > > should have earned your respect. > > > > > > Trey, by virtue of his unique position as a nonprofessional whose > > > accomplishments, experience and contributions to the body of technical > > > diving > > > knowledge have earned him the respect of divers worldwide, happens to >have > >a > > > confrontational communication style. Because of his position I, and >most > > > others who wish to learn, overlook this as a personal negative. It is >his > > > way and we accept him for what he is and what he has to offer. And we >are > > > appreciative for his time and efforts. > > > > > > But make no mistake that you have certainly not earned a similar >position. > > > In my opinion, you have no business whatever telling Tom Mount or the > > > others, > > > what they SHOULD be doing. They are the teachers and you are the >student. > > > They tell you. You listen quietly, ask for more information, choose >what > >is > > > right for you and make your own decisions. But you do not pretend to be > >on > > > the level of your teachers and direct them. That is pure ego. > > > > > > Let's not forget that we live in an ordered society where true respect >is > > > earned over many years of accomplishment and service, not simply by who > >can > > > yell the loudest or type the most curse words into his or her computer. >I > > > consider myself really fortunate to have had the opportunity to learn >from > > > individuals of this caliber. > > > > > > Jim, I think that you ought to consider this carefully and perhaps >modify > > > your approach when communicating with these folks. And I need to say >here > > > that although this message is addressed to you Jim, I am actually also > > > speaking to a number of the other posters on this list. > > > > > > But then OTOH, this is simply one diver's opinion. > > > > > > Take care and dive safe, Scott > > > > > > Some weeks it's just not worth the effort to gnaw through the restraints > >and > > > scramble up out of the pit. > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/23/01 9:12:32 PM, cobber@ci*.co* writes: > > > << Tom- > > > Maybe not but there are plenty of diveshops out there who would > > > love to sell some of these high margin pieces of shit and saying what >you > > > said below is about as close to a promotion as you can get. Did you > >purchase > > > yours or was it a promo? > > > <snip> > > > Tom, as I recall you used to stuff the long hose, use bungee wings, use > > > steel stages, dive deep air, etc. Don't make this mistake too. >> > > > -- > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > -- > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > >-- > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the >water" >Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more > Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ >Email captjt@mi*.co* > > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the water" Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ Email captjt@mi*.co* -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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