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David, To clarify, please define "instantaneous". Start of the first breath of the new gas, end of the first breath, after several breaths, etc,? It stands to reason the the process won't stop until the mechanism causing the effect is gone, and that takes time. When I was in the Air Force I did the altitude chamber ride where we were exposed to hypoxic pressures. When switching back to 100% pressure demand O2, it still took awhile for reality to come back. In Kenneth Donald's "Oxygen and the Diver" there are several studies where divers convulsed several minutes after switching back to a normoxic mix. So the question is: what causes these delayed physiological processes if the "reset" is "instantaneous? How did the studies you were involved with address the objective vs subjective determination of "reset"? Was it double blind with controls or maybe you felt "reset" because you switched to a gas that you believed would "reset". It would be nice if that was the case but experience in the real world indicates otherwise. C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Norton" <davidnor@ho*.co*> To: "Techdiver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:38 PM Subject: FW: Trimix Computers > > below -- please see * > > -----Original Message----- > From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*] > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:00 PM > To: David Norton; Trey; Techdiver > Subject: RE: Trimix Computers > > > At 10:32 PM 5/29/01 -0700, David Norton wrote: > >As far as narcosis goes, you are "reset" instantaneously as you switch the > >gases. The gas switch triggers a avalanche effect in the oxygen window and > >nulls the narcosis mechanism. After a period, the narcosis does reappear > if > >you are at a depth where it should occur. > > Hi David > I'm not sure I buy that on the start of a dive, because of personal > experience. I have all but stopped using travel gas for anything other than > the very deep dives. I will start my dives with a mix down to 12% 02, I > just do not breath it on the surface. The first time I stopped using travel > gas I was much more at ease on the bottom from the start and the dives less > stressful no odd feelings at the start of a dive, no gas switch or hoses to > re park and less chance of a fuck up. I do not believe the body "resets" > instantaneously. The minutes you save on deco using a travel gas are lost > ON the DIVE because you used it. I will do the 10 or so extra minutes on > deco and have that 2 minutes of a clear,stress free mind on the dive which > is short enough already and I want the most out of it. > > *The switch is instantaneous. Medical fact. It's used almost everyday at a > hospital here in my town. It does bring patients out of anesthesia and has > saved lives by doing so. I personally have experienced it as I've switched > to deco gas and published with an anesthesiologist to bring this phenomenon. > > > > >This is a handy thing and will allow a small period of clear headedness if > >used properly. I don't know the travel mix and can't comment on the effect > >on the diver for more than the short period of the gas switch. Depending > on > >the workload, hypercapia may be a more suitable explanation because of the > >increase in gas density. > > Hypercapnia, is more likely to happen just after or during a workload and > the case I speak of was already after some time had past during deco on > heliox 16 starting at a deep depth and the switch was made at 130ft to > nitrox 32, I think those are the mixes, lurkers on this list will correct > me I'm sure. I do not know exactly how long it was after the switch that he > almost passed out. > > *Hypercapnia is also, caused a bit by hyperventation. Ever notice how > people take a few *quick breaths after a gas switch, like the regulator > won't work. This could be there, too. > *I don't know. But changing oxygen concentration in a gas mix should > alleviate, not cause *narcosis. > > > >The oxygen window "reset" for narcosis (incipient anesthesia) is known dive > >physiology trait with myself as one of the authors of the article. > > I write no articles, just do the dives and tell you what happens to me. > > JT > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*] > >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:14 PM > >To: Capt JT; Brian&Kari Hunter > >Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com > >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers > > > > > > > >By the way, "travel" gases must be used carefully, and only where they fit: > >it takes about two minutes for the effect of the last gas to wear off, so > if > >you are dropping, you are still "on" that mix well after you do not want to > >be. > > > >JT is right on the money with this bailout thing. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*] > >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:36 AM > >To: Brian&Kari Hunter > >Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com > >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers > > > > > >Hi Brian > >Let me explain why it is good NOT not to do this and why oldtimers think it > >is Ok to do this. > > > >First oldtimers use pony bottles as a bailout system with air mostly, with > >the introduction of deep dives using trimix they believed that it was OK to > >use the pony as a travel gas and for bailout. The whole pony bottle rig > >takes years to master(if you ever really do) and is a sure sign you are > >behind in the diving scene. > > > >Ken Clayton, who uses the rig in the worst possible way, uses the pony as a > >travel gas with air to around 200ft and deco or bailout gas. He also says > >that you must do deep air to do these deep dives, to prepare for narcosis > >on these deep dives. This is all untrue. I do not do deep air and dive just > >as deep as he has with an EAD that is not = to deep air. > > > >To dive with an high HE content and switch to a high narcotic mix will > >knock your dick in the dirt. You will not be able to solve any problem and > >have just created one. > > > >Example, the first dive to the wreck "Ostfrisland" depth 380ft was done > >with a heliox mix, there is no nitrogen in that mix, but the plan was to > >switch to a nitrox mix for deco which has a high nitrogen content. What > >happen to one of the divers was he nearly pass out from narcosis just after > >the switch. All the first divers to that wreck were deep air divers and one > >out of three had a problem of "Not handling it", I don't like those odds. > > > >JT > > > > > > > > > > At 05:55 AM 5/29/01 -0400, Trey wrote: > > > > > Brian, first , stay away from anyone this stupid, and put his name on > >here > > >for all to see and avoid. Second, where does the air come from? Air is > not > >a > > >natural hazard one comes across in diving. Only an idiot dives air. > > > > > > There is no "handling" being fucked up on air. This is like thinking > that > > >if you put a hand over one eye, it is ok to drive drunk. > > > > > > Really, in all seriousness, please give us the name of the piece of > shit > > >who told you this. It is hard to believe that anyone is still this stupid > > >out there. > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Brian&Kari Hunter [mailto:sasha@ka*.ne*] > > >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:35 AM > > >To: Trey > > >Subject: Re: Trimix Computers > > > > > > > > >Trey, > > >Should a person know how to deal with narcosis so if they have to switch > > >from he to a more narcotic for emergency reasons they know how to handel > >it? > > >The instructor i'm thinking of taking trimix with says this is true after > I > > >told him I wanted trimix to stay away from deep air. > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*> > > >To: <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > >Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:14 AM > > >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott ,the legacy of Gilliam and Mount lies in the holding of deep > air > > > > diving records ( Tom was one of the "pioneers" there ) and the rest of > > >their > > > > "accomplishments" are not material for this list. Let's say they did > not > > > > know any better and so what. The thing that bothers Cobb and the rest > >of > > >us > > > > is the ongoing inability and unwillingness to move onward and upward > >with > > > > the learning curve. > > > > > > > > Using their "position" of "respect" to misdirect is not now a worthy > > > > endeavor. Failing to learn is not worthy of respect. I could go on, > but > >in > > > > truth some of these guys need a good kick in the balls, and maybe > their > > > > hearts and minds will follow. > > > > > > > > I do not need respect or protection: I can argue my case successfully > >and > > > > they can not, because they have no case - ever. I am sick of hearing > >about > > > > the latest gimmick that Tom thinks is so clever that he just started > >using > > > > yesterday but is perfectly willing to recommend it to anyone, and as > Jim > > > > Cobb very accurately said, Tom has a long history of this going back > to > > > > square lights and so forth. > > > > > > > > If there is anything that I tell anyone that turns out to be bs, then > > > > somebody come on hear and point it out - won't happen, and if I do > > >something > > > > which later proves to be superceded by a better way, I am the first to > >say > > > > so. > > > > > > > > The cumulative track record of IANTD and TDI is not something that > > >commands > > > > any respect at all, in fact, it should require jail time in my > opinion, > > >and > > > > if you want a cross section of real nonsense, notice the misinformed > > >baloney > > > > that comes out of some of these "instructors" when they post to this > >list. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: ScottBonis@ao*.co* [mailto:ScottBonis@ao*.co*] > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:22 PM > > > > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > > > > Subject: Re: Trimix Computers > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim, > > > > > > > > You may recall that you and I have butted heads a number of times in > the > > > > past, as well as agreeing on various subjects also. But I see another > > >head > > > > butting coming on. > > > > > > > > I have on numerous occasions chastised posters on the net for saying > > > > derogatory things about Trey. Not ever for arguing about his opinions > >or > > > > advice (which are usually pretty sound), but for showing a lack of > >respect > > > > for his accomplishments and dedication to the sport of diving. There > > >comes > > > > a > > > > point that even if I disagree with what is being said, I must respect > >the > > > > speaker if he has earned a certain position in the community. A > >freshman > > > > doesn't challenge a full professor. He or she may question, but never > > > > accuse > > > > or direct. After the freshman has graduated and contributed to the > > > > community, then he or she may argue. > > > > > > > > Now I must request that you display a greater respect for several of > the > > > > people in the dive community who don't happen to be associated with > the > > >WKPP > > > > or GUE. Tom Mount, whether or not you agree with his dive techniques, > >is > > > > one > > > > of the clear leaders and outstanding figures in the technical diving > > > > community. He at IANTD, along with Ed Betts at ANDI, Bret Gilliam at > >TDI, > > > > et. al. for example, are, whether or not you choose to accept it, > among > > >the > > > > true pioneers in technical diving. These people and others like them, > >are > > > > our teachers and have devoted major portions of their lives to > advancing > > > > diving techniques and making the sport safer for all of us. > > > > > > > > Perhaps you now feel that some of the information being presented by > >these > > > > organizations has been superseded by new data that points in a new > > > > direction. > > > > This may be so. But it does not give you the right or even simply > > > > permission, to forget that these people and organizations have > >persevered > > > > and > > > > should have earned your respect. > > > > > > > > Trey, by virtue of his unique position as a nonprofessional whose > > > > accomplishments, experience and contributions to the body of technical > > > > diving > > > > knowledge have earned him the respect of divers worldwide, happens to > >have > > >a > > > > confrontational communication style. Because of his position I, and > >most > > > > others who wish to learn, overlook this as a personal negative. It is > >his > > > > way and we accept him for what he is and what he has to offer. And we > >are > > > > appreciative for his time and efforts. > > > > > > > > But make no mistake that you have certainly not earned a similar > >position. > > > > In my opinion, you have no business whatever telling Tom Mount or the > > > > others, > > > > what they SHOULD be doing. They are the teachers and you are the > >student. > > > > They tell you. You listen quietly, ask for more information, choose > >what > > >is > > > > right for you and make your own decisions. But you do not pretend to > be > > >on > > > > the level of your teachers and direct them. That is pure ego. > > > > > > > > Let's not forget that we live in an ordered society where true respect > >is > > > > earned over many years of accomplishment and service, not simply by > who > > >can > > > > yell the loudest or type the most curse words into his or her > computer. > >I > > > > consider myself really fortunate to have had the opportunity to learn > >from > > > > individuals of this caliber. > > > > > > > > Jim, I think that you ought to consider this carefully and perhaps > >modify > > > > your approach when communicating with these folks. And I need to say > >here > > > > that although this message is addressed to you Jim, I am actually also > > > > speaking to a number of the other posters on this list. > > > > > > > > But then OTOH, this is simply one diver's opinion. > > > > > > > > Take care and dive safe, Scott > > > > > > > > Some weeks it's just not worth the effort to gnaw through the > restraints > > >and > > > > scramble up out of the pit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/23/01 9:12:32 PM, cobber@ci*.co* writes: > > > > << Tom- > > > > Maybe not but there are plenty of diveshops out there who would > > > > love to sell some of these high margin pieces of shit and saying what > >you > > > > said below is about as close to a promotion as you can get. Did you > > >purchase > > > > yours or was it a promo? > > > > <snip> > > > > Tom, as I recall you used to stuff the long hose, use bungee wings, > use > > > > steel stages, dive deep air, etc. Don't make this mistake too. >> > > > > -- > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > >"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the > >water" > >Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more > > Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ > >Email captjt@mi*.co* > > > > > >-- > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > >-- > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > >-- > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the > water" > Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more > Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ > Email captjt@mi*.co* > > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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