This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0E1D0.E743C7C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jerry,

My experience with Luxfer has not impressed me either.  My company =
manufactures an eddy current machine which competes directly with =
theirs.  All my contacts with their people have left me with a bad taste =
in my mouth.  Maybe it was the shuttling around until I ended up with =
talking to a PR firm in LA or the confrontation with them a three =
DEMA's. =20

They have a problem, a fact they do a good job of side stepping.  The =
$50.00 for a replacment cylinder probably represents their cost and =
shipping charges to you.  That is not a bad deal for them. =20

To be fair though, is it reasonable to expect a 30  or 40 year life on =
an 3AL cylinder?  Most of the cylinders I see are not from the original =
purchaser.  They are second hand cylinders they bought at a flea market. =
 I have noted that there is an inverse relationship to the older the =
cylinder and the less one has invested in to the noise I hear when it is =
condemned. =20

The only manufacturer to have never had the SLC problem is Catalina.  =
They never used the 6351 material which the aircraft industry stopped =
using years ago for the same reason.  Why did Luxfer continue to use it? =
 In spite of the rhetoric I hear from them of it being a legal material, =
I believe it was simply a matter of economics.  (The legal balancing act =
of exposure vs liability.  How much will each failure cost us versus how =
much we can make by doing it this way)

Anyone who is interested can get information on an eddy current machine =
which was developed without any type of support from the cylinder =
industry can visit the web site at www.engineeredinspection.com and go =
the the Simple eddy page.

Dale Bletso
pres.
Engineered Inspection Systems

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jerry Gilbert=20
  To: barbarite@ea*.ne* ; Techdiver List=20
  Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 12:59 AM
  Subject: Luxfer Cylinder Replacement Policy


  Bob,=20
  You can send the valveless cylinder directly to Luxfer Gas Cylinders, =
3016 Kansas Avenue, Riverside, Calif. 92507 USA; telephone 909-684-5110; =
fax 909-781-6598 yourself with a copy of the test results and $50 bucks. =
 They will replace it.  You need to call them  and get a Returned Goods =
Authorization number first.   After you pay the shipping one way, you'll =
have about another $25 in it going UPS ground.  Not hardly worth the =
trouble and yes, inconsistent with the "Luxfer Lifetime Warranty" we =
were all promised years ago.  Luxfer and aluminum cylinders in general =
have lost my trust.=20

  Luxfer is not the party who originally came up with the Visual Plus =
system although they did assist in its development.  Once it was =
developed in response to safety issues concerning several catastrophic =
failures beginning in June 1994, they recognized it's inherent value and =
embraced the technology.=20

  Sustained Load Cracking in the crown threads is a very real and =
serious problem with aluminum cylinders of all makes.  The equivalent =
explosive force is approximately equal to that of 50 pounds of 50% TNT =
going off.  It can maim, kill and destroy everyone and everything in =
sight.=20

  For this reason and as the "Sustained Load Cracking" phrase implies, =
all cylinders should be stored with between 100-500 psi if not going to =
be used for extended periods of time.  When filling, the fill rate =
should never exceed 600 psi per minutes to allow material sufficient =
time to expand correctly without cracking.=20

  To my knowledge, no one has initiated a class action regarding the =
warranty issue to date.  I sure wish someone would since I own =
approximately 12 of the mid pre-1988 POS cylinders that contained the =
6351-T6 alloy that is believed responsible for this problem.  If you =
hear of one, let me know and I'll contribute if it's reasonable. Alton =
Hall may have information regarding such an action.=20

  I find it amusing if not distressing that many of these cylinders are =
appearing on E-Bay on a regular basis to which I notified E-Bay and they =
refused to take appropriate action.  It will be interesting to see the =
legal ramifications of their policy once one of these cylinders explodes =
and causes damages ~ another potential case for Alton.=20

  For current Luxfer Replacement Policies, Click Here.=20

  From a Luxfer Seminar at the February 2001 DEMA Show, More Details =
Click Here.=20
  I don't necessarily agree with everything Luxfer states here as fact, =
but most of it is accurate if one keeps in mind they hold a vested =
interest in how it is composed and comprehended by readers and the legal =
community.=20

  There is also a wealth of information regarding this subject in the =
Federal Register if you care to do a search for it..=20

  This is an older list of the cylinders in question.  The links above =
have pushed some of the dates up.=20

  Luxfer USA Ltd. (909) 684-5110=20
  SUSPECT CYLINDERS - LUXFER 6351 ALLOY=20

                Series No's E6498 SP6498 DOT-3AL manufactured up=20
                to 01/89=20

                ALL DOT-3AL tanks under no's 6498, 7042, 8107,=20
                8364, 8422=20

                All composite tanks under no's 7235, 8023, 8115=20

                All Walter Kidde DOT-3AL TANKS=20

                All Cliff Impact DOT-3AL tanks made before July=20
                1990=20

                All Luxfer 80.8 cu ft tanks made before May 1987=20

                All Luxfer Scuba tanks made before August 1987=20

                All other US manufactured tanks made before Feb=20
                1990 except CATALINA - which were NEVER made from=20
                6351-T6=20
                alloy=20

  Best Regards,=20

  Jerry Gilbert=20
  Crawfordville, Florida=20
  mailto:CaptainJerry@Ta*.Co*=20
   =20

  You Wrote:=20

  From: "Robert Barbarite" <barbarite@ea*.ne*>=08=20
  Subject: Luxfer Scuba Cylinders=20
  Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 15:11:15 -0400=20
   =20
   =20

  I would like to get information on luxfer's policy regarding aluminum=20
  cylinders that fail the Visual Plus test.  I think this is a test =
designed=20
  by Luxfer?=20

  I've recently been told (by a local shop) that Luxfer will replace the =

  cylinder, thru the local shop, but it will cost me $100.00.  Is this =
shop=20
  being straight?=20

  This doesn't sound like a terrific deal considering the cylinders were =

  originally sold with a lifetime warranty.=20

  Is anyone aware of any class action suits pending against Luxfer over =
this=20
  issue?=20

  Regards,=20
  Bob Barbarite=20
  Marriottsville, MD -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to =
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to =
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.


------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0E1D0.E743C7C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY aLink=3D#ff0000 bgColor=3D#ffffff link=3D#33ccff text=3D#000000 =
vLink=3D#ff99ff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jerry,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My experience with Luxfer has not =
impressed me=20
either.  My company manufactures an eddy current machine which =
competes=20
directly with theirs.  All my contacts with their people have left =
me with=20
a bad taste in my mouth.  Maybe it was the shuttling around until I =
ended=20
up with talking to a PR firm in LA or the confrontation with them a =
three=20
DEMA's.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>They have a problem, a fact they do a =
good job of=20
side stepping.  The $50.00 for a replacment cylinder probably =
represents=20
their cost and shipping charges to you.  That is not a bad deal for =

them.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To be fair though, is it reasonable to =
expect a=20
30  or 40 year life on an 3AL cylinder?  Most of the cylinders =
I see=20
are not from the original purchaser.  They are second hand =
cylinders they=20
bought at a flea market.  I have noted that there is an inverse=20
relationship to the older the cylinder and the less one has invested =
in to=20
the noise I hear when it is condemned.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The only manufacturer to have never had =
the SLC=20
problem is Catalina.  They never used the 6351 material which the =
aircraft=20
industry stopped using years ago for the same reason.  Why did =
Luxfer=20
continue to use it?  In spite of the rhetoric I hear from them of =
it being=20
a legal material, I believe it was simply a matter of economics.  =
(The=20
legal balancing act of exposure vs liability.  How much will each =
failure=20
cost us versus how much we can make by doing it this way)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anyone who is interested can get =
information=20
on an eddy current machine which was developed without any type of =
support=20
from the cylinder industry can visit the web site at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.engineeredinspection.com">www.engineeredinspection.com=
</A> and=20
go the the Simple eddy page.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dale Bletso</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>pres.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Engineered Inspection =
Systems</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:CaptainJerry@Ta*.Co*" =
title=3DCaptainJerry@Ta*.Co*>Jerry=20
  Gilbert</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:barbarite@ea*.ne*"=20
  title=3Dbarbarite@ea*.ne*>barbarite@earthlink.net</A> ; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com" =
title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com>Techdiver=20
  List</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 21, 2001 =
12:59 AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Luxfer Cylinder =
Replacement=20
  Policy</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Bob,=20
  <P>You can send the <U>valveless</U> cylinder directly to Luxfer
Gas=20
  Cylinders, 3016 Kansas Avenue, Riverside, Calif. 92507 USA; telephone=20
  909-684-5110; fax 909-781-6598 yourself with a copy of the test =
results and=20
  $50 bucks.  They will replace it.  You need to call =
them  and=20
  get a Returned Goods Authorization number first.   After you =
pay the=20
  shipping one way, you'll have about another $25 in it going UPS =
ground. =20
  Not hardly worth the trouble and yes, inconsistent with the "Luxfer =
Lifetime=20
  Warranty" we were all promised years ago.  Luxfer and aluminum =
cylinders=20
  in general have lost my trust.=20
  <P>Luxfer is not the party who originally came up with the Visual Plus =
system=20
  although they did assist in its development.  Once it was =
developed in=20
  response to safety issues concerning several catastrophic failures =
beginning=20
  in June 1994, they recognized it's inherent value and embraced the =
technology.=20

  <P>Sustained Load Cracking in the crown threads is a very real and =
serious=20
  problem with aluminum cylinders of all makes.  The equivalent =
explosive=20
  force is approximately equal to that of 50 pounds of 50% TNT going =
off. =20
  It can maim, kill and destroy everyone and everything in sight.=20
  <P>For this reason and as the "<U>Sustained Load</U> Cracking"
phrase =
implies,=20
  all cylinders should be stored with between 100-500 psi if not going =
to be=20
  used for extended periods of time.  When filling, the fill rate =
should=20
  never exceed 600 psi per minutes to allow material sufficient time to =
expand=20
  correctly without cracking.=20
  <P>To my knowledge, no one has initiated a class action regarding the =
warranty=20
  issue to date.  I sure wish someone would since I own =
approximately 12 of=20
  the mid pre-1988 POS cylinders that contained the 6351-T6 alloy that =
is=20
  believed responsible for this problem.  If you hear of one, let =
me know=20
  and I'll contribute if it's reasonable. <A=20
  href=3D"http://www.divelawyer.com/">Alton Hall</A> may have =
information=20
  regarding such an action.=20
  <P>I find it amusing if not distressing that many of these cylinders =
are=20
  appearing on E-Bay on a regular basis to which I notified E-Bay and =
they=20
  refused to take appropriate action.  It will be interesting to =
see the=20
  legal ramifications of their policy once one of these cylinders =
explodes and=20
  causes damages ~ another potential case for Alton.=20
  <P>For current Luxfer Replacement Policies, <A=20
  href=3D"http://www.luxfercylinders.com/news_articles.asp4.htm">Click =
Here</A>.=20
  <P>From a Luxfer Seminar at the February 2001 DEMA Show, <A=20
  href=3D"http://www.luxfercylinders.com/scubafaq.html">More Details =
Click=20
  Here</A>. <BR>I don't necessarily agree with everything Luxfer states =
here as=20
  fact, but most of it is accurate if one keeps in mind they hold a =
vested=20
  interest in how it is composed and comprehended by readers and the =
legal=20
  community.=20
  <P>There is also a wealth of information regarding this subject in the =
Federal=20
  Register if you care to do a search for it..=20
  <P>This is an older list of the cylinders in question.  The links =
above=20
  have pushed some of the dates up.=20
  <P>Luxfer USA Ltd. (909) 684-5110 <BR>SUSPECT CYLINDERS - LUXFER 6351 =
ALLOY=20
  =
<P>           &nbs=
p; =20
  Series No's E6498 SP6498 DOT-3AL manufactured up=20
  =
<BR>           &nb=
sp; =20
  to 01/89=20
  =
<P>           &nbs=
p; =20
  ALL DOT-3AL tanks under no's 6498, 7042, 8107,=20
  =
<BR>           &nb=
sp; =20
  8364, 8422=20
  =
<P>           &nbs=
p; =20
  All composite tanks under no's 7235, 8023, 8115=20
  =
<P>           &nbs=
p; =20
  All Walter Kidde DOT-3AL TANKS=20
  =
<P>           &nbs=
p; =20
  All Cliff Impact DOT-3AL tanks made before July=20
  =
<BR>           &nb=
sp; =20
  1990=20
  =
<P>           &nbs=
p; =20
  All Luxfer 80.8 cu ft tanks made before May 1987=20
  =
<P>           &nbs=
p; =20
  All Luxfer Scuba tanks made before August 1987=20
  =
<P>           &nbs=
p; =20
  All other US manufactured tanks made before Feb=20
  =
<BR>           &nb=
sp; =20
  1990 except CATALINA - which were NEVER made from=20
  =
<BR>           &nb=
sp; =20
  6351-T6=20
  =
<BR>           &nb=
sp; =20
  alloy=20
  <P>Best Regards,=20
  <P>Jerry Gilbert <BR>Crawfordville, Florida <BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:CaptainJerry@Ta*.Co*">mailto:CaptainJerry@Talstar.Com<=
/A>=20
  <BR> =20
  <P>You Wrote:=20
  <P>From: "Robert Barbarite" <barbarite@ea*.ne*>=08 =
<BR>Subject:=20
  Luxfer Scuba Cylinders <BR>Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 15:11:15 -0400 =
<BR> =20
  <BR> =20
  <P>I would like to get information on luxfer's policy regarding =
aluminum=20
  <BR>cylinders that fail the Visual Plus test.  I think this is a =
test=20
  designed <BR>by Luxfer?=20
  <P>I've recently been told (by a local shop) that Luxfer will replace =
the=20
  <BR>cylinder, thru the local shop, but it will cost me $100.00.  =
Is this=20
  shop <BR>being straight?=20
  <P>This doesn't sound like a terrific deal considering the cylinders =
were=20
  <BR>originally sold with a lifetime warranty.=20
  <P>Is anyone aware of any class action suits pending against Luxfer =
over this=20
  <BR>issue?=20
  <P>Regards, <BR>Bob Barbarite <BR>Marriottsville, MD -- Send mail
for =
the=20
  `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send=20
  subscribe/unsubscribe requests to=20
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0E1D0.E743C7C0--

--
Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.

Navigate by Author: [Previous] [Next] [Author Search Index]
Navigate by Subject: [Previous] [Next] [Subject Search Index]

[Send Reply] [Send Message with New Topic]

[Search Selection] [Mailing List Home] [Home]