This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0DD4A.0C4D8820
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No shit Jozef. Did you think about producing undergarments too?<g> =
Please tell me what equipment you are not in progress of replicating.=20

Nice to meet you in Croatia.

Richard
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Gliviak, Jozef=20
  To: 'Alex Vasauskas' ; Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 11:55 AM
  Subject: RE: Story behind DUI 400 gram Thinsulate Undergarment


  Hello Alex,

  I'm not sure how much valid are some of the informations you've got =
from DUI. About a year ago I was thinking about producing my own =
undergarment as DUI just costs fortune for us EastEuropeans and it's =
also a hobby to produce own diving stuff.
  I discussed quite a lot with local 3M representative. He also =
suggested type B as probably the best for diving. But gave me different =
pricing information from yours. Type B was the cheapest one 3M produces. =
He gave me a big box of this material for free. The material has very =
low compressibility, but also absolutelly no flexibility. It's stiff =
like paper. Pull a little bit and it would break. This is not an issue =
in boots as they do not need to flex a lot but if you make a suit from =
it, it feels weird. You can hardly move in it without restricting =
feeleing or you will simply break the insulation by overstreching.

  So finally we came to conclusion to use more flexible material. The =
only magic is to use the same density of fibres as it would be when we =
would use type B. This ends in using more layers of thinner and flexible =
thinsulate in order to compensate the other materials incorporated =
inside.

  Hopefully I will get permission to disasemble my friends DUI =
undergarment soon and take a look inside, but I do not belive type B is =
the one DUI uses. The suit has different strech properties as the "B" =
inside would allow.

  In dive wear you do not care too much about compressibility as the =
outside preasure will compress any used material. But quite important is =
the ability to transport moisture away from your body and the atribute =
of absorbabitlity of water. Absorbability also greatly affects thermal =
insulating properties when wet.

  Best regards

  Jozef Gliviak
  Slovakia



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Alex Vasauskas [mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*]
    Sent: 11. m=E1ja 2001 11:00
    To: DIR Quest; Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com
    Subject: Story behind DUI 400 gram Thinsulate Undergarment


    DUI customer service finally hooked me up with their R&D department =
to answer my questions regarding the DUI C-4 that Trey insists on.  I =
have learned not to doubt Trey's experience -- every time I try =
something he says, it turns out he's right.  Nonetheless, there are =
several kinds of Thinsulate (see =
http://www.3m.com/market/consumer/thinsulate/insulations.html), and I =
wanted the story behind the material DUI uses, an explanation about why =
their Thinsulate may be different than the Thinsulate other =
manufacturers use, and a comparison to other materials used by =
undergarment manufacturers.  Here's the story from Bob Stinton at DUI's =
R&D:

    The Thinsulate that is used in DUI divewear is Type B and the B =
stands for boot so it is in the Footwear group

    Thinsulate Insulation,
    Thinsulate Flex Insulation
    Thinsulate Lite Loft Insulation
    Thinsulate Ultra Extreme Insulation
    Thinsulate Ultra Active Insulation
     Thinsulate Insulation for Footwear

    Little history: In the beginning there was only type M and it was =
not insulation it was used for cleaning up oil spills. Type M which =
later became type B is 100% polypropyline micro fibers.  As such is =
produce a dense and compression resistant batting which is why it is use =
in boots.  However it dose not make good ski jackets because is dose not =
have the loft like down jackets. All the other variants of Thinsulate =
are blended with different qualities of polyester fibers which act as =
springs and make it more lofty. However this loft is highly =
compressible, the pressure gradient across a dry suit when the diver is =
vertical in the water is about 3 psi and when the diver is in the prone  =
it is about 1 psi.  Type M and later B batting only loses about 40-60 =
percent of it insulation when loaded at these pressure and the other =
types of high loft battings loss 85-95 percent of their insulation under =
the same loading.  Because of this resistance to pressure loading type B =
is use in footwear.

    The second property that made the M and later B batting the Navy's =
choice, for critical diving applications, was that dense nature of the =
batting.  The dens packing of the fibers which makes it compression =
resistant also helps it maintain more of its insulation when immersed, =
this is because the fibers are so close together there is not much space =
for water to ingress.

    DUI looks at each new variant of 3Ms Thinsulate when it comes out =
for suability for divewear, to date none of these match up with =
thinsulate.  The only material know to come close is a material called =
Flectalon which come from the UK, however Flectalon dose not have wide =
distributed and it is more expensive.  (Red: NEDU Report: Insulation, =
Compressibility and Absorbency of Dry Suit Undergarments.)

    Hope this helps

    Bob

    Engineering


    Alex

    DUI uses Thinsulate garments with 200 and 400 gm/m2 Type B material.

    Regarding the TR1000 garments. The temperature regulating material =
incorporates is micro capsules of wax attached to the fabric.  The =
concept is this wax melts at low temperatures 80-90F. The concept is =
that when you are working hard your skin temperatures warms up and the =
wax is melted and in the process some heat is stored. Then when you skin =
temperature drop the heat in the wax is avalable to you.  The problem is =
the amount of heat that you can store in the wax is minimal, depending =
on the environment it may only be minutes. Its like a car battery, the =
dome light will run for days without running down the battery, however =
you can only crank the starter for minutes.  In theory material is most =
suited for things like skiing, you ski down the mountain and store a =
little heat which is then avalable during the next lift ride up the =
mountain. The key is this thermal storage layer must be next to the skin =
and anything between the skin and it is diminishing its effectiveness, =
it like using 50 ft jumper cables.

    This temperature regulating material has been tested in diving =
application about four years ago in diving suits by the Navy and since =
then no further testing has been done, the result where not very =
positive. Also the wax heat storage materials have been around since the =
60's and where tested then for diving.

    I know the Army is looking at it in cold weather boots, for =
situation where the solder is going though cycles of work and resting =
like 15 min on 15 min off. Some of the boots in the test with this =
temperature regulating material seam to work better then others.  It is =
just preliminary testing and the results are only minutes between the =
ones that work and don't work.

    And yes the material was developed by NASA and the Air Force, =
however the application was for dealing with temperature spikes in in =
electronic cooling system.

    If you want to see how it may work for your application you could =
purchase a pair of EC2=D4 Body Sensors  from Terramar at =
http://www.terramarsports.com/sensors.html. They make insulate underwave =
(long johns) for the outdoor market. The EC2=D4 Body Sensors underwear =
contains Outlast temperature regulating fabric.

    And yes you could wear this garment under the DUI Thinsulate =
Divewear, as you can any thing that will fit under the divewear as long =
as it fits under the divewear with out binding or restricting your =
movement and breathing. Wearing thing under or over the Thinsulate =
garment will only add to you total insulation, it is like the outdoors =
it's layering.

    As far as the 100 gm/m2 insulation used in the TR1000 divewear I =
would assume that is a high loft type C variant Thinsulate which =
containing polyester fibers. The reason most people us this it is =
because it is less expensive than the type B.  Also you get the =
marketing advantage that you can put the Thinsulate name on you product =
and most customers would not know the difference, its marketing what can =
I say.

    Best regards

    Bob



   
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><>
    Diving Unlimited International, Inc.

    DUI Divers are a Breed Apart - Join the Pack!
    DOGS - DUI Owners Group DOGs at www.DUI-Online
   
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><>


------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0DD4A.0C4D8820
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>No shit Jozef. Did you think about =
producing=20
undergarments too?<g> Please tell me what equipment you are not in =

progress of replicating. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nice to meet you in =
Croatia.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DJozef.Gliviak@co*.co*=20
  href=3D"mailto:Jozef.Gliviak@co*.co*">Gliviak, Jozef</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsurlyc@al*.ne*=20
  href=3D"mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*">'Alex Vasauskas'</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com">Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 15, 2001 =
11:55=20
AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Story behind DUI
=
400 gram=20
  Thinsulate Undergarment</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D018042309-15052001>Hello Alex,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D018042309-15052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D018042309-15052001>I'm=20
  not sure how much valid are some of the informations you've got from =
DUI.=20
  About a year ago I was thinking about producing my own undergarment as =
DUI=20
  just costs fortune for us EastEuropeans and it's also a hobby to =
produce own=20
  diving stuff.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D018042309-15052001>I=20
  discussed quite a lot with local 3M representative. He also suggested =
type B=20
  as probably the best for diving. But gave me different pricing =
information=20
  from yours. Type B was the cheapest one 3M produces. He gave me a big =
box of=20
  this material for free. The material has very low compressibility, but =

  also absolutelly no flexibility. It's stiff like paper. Pull a =
little bit=20
  and it would break. This is not an issue in boots as they do not need =
to flex=20
  a lot but if you make a suit from it, it feels weird. You can =
hardly move=20
  in it without restricting feeleing or you will simply break the =
insulation by=20
  overstreching.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D018042309-15052001>So=20
  finally we came to conclusion to use more flexible material. The only =
magic is=20
  to use the same density of fibres as it would be when we would use =
type B.=20
  This ends in using more layers of thinner and flexible thinsulate in =
order to=20
  compensate the other materials incorporated =
inside.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D018042309-15052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D018042309-15052001>Hopefully I will get permission to =
disasemble my=20
  friends DUI undergarment soon and take a look inside, but I do not =
belive type=20
  B is the one DUI uses. The suit has different strech properties as the =
"B"=20
  inside would allow.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D018042309-15052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D018042309-15052001>In=20
  dive wear you </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D018042309-15052001>do not care too much about compressibility =
as the=20
  outside preasure will compress any used material. But quite important =
is the=20
  ability to transport moisture away from your body and the atribute of=20
  absorbabitlity of water. Absorbability also greatly affects =
thermal=20
  insulating properties when wet.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D018042309-15052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D018042309-15052001>Best=20
  regards</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D018042309-15052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D018042309-15052001>Jozef Gliviak</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D018042309-15052001>Slovakia</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Alex
Vasauskas=20
    [mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> 11. m=E1ja 2001 =
11:00<BR><B>To:</B>=20
    DIR Quest; Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Story behind
=
DUI 400=20
    gram Thinsulate Undergarment<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>DUI customer service finally hooked me up with =
their=20
    R&D department to answer my questions regarding the DUI C-4 that =

    Trey insists on.  I have learned not to doubt Trey's =
experience --=20
    every time I try something he says, it turns out he's right. =20
    Nonetheless, there are several kinds of Thinsulate (see <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.3m.com/market/consumer/thinsulate/insulations.html">ht=
tp://www.3m.com/market/consumer/thinsulate/insulations.html</A>),=20
    and I wanted the story behind the material DUI uses, an=20
    explanation about why their Thinsulate may be different than the =
Thinsulate=20
    other manufacturers use, and a comparison to other materials used by =

    undergarment manufacturers.  Here's the story from Bob Stinton =
at DUI's=20
    R&D:</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV>The Thinsulate that is used in DUI divewear is Type B and the B =
stands=20
    for boot so it is in the Footwear group<BR><BR>Thinsulate=20
    Insulation,<BR>Thinsulate Flex Insulation<BR>Thinsulate Lite Loft=20
    Insulation<BR>Thinsulate Ultra Extreme Insulation<BR>Thinsulate =
Ultra Active=20
    Insulation<BR> Thinsulate Insulation for
Footwear<BR><BR>Little =

    history: In the beginning there was only type M and it was not =
insulation it=20
    was used for cleaning up oil spills. Type M which later became type =
B is=20
    100% polypropyline micro fibers.  As such is produce a dense =
and=20
    compression resistant batting which is why it is use in boots.  =
However=20
    it dose not make good ski jackets because is dose not have the loft =
like=20
    down jackets. All the other variants of Thinsulate are blended with=20
    different qualities of polyester fibers which act as springs and =
make it=20
    more lofty. However this loft is highly compressible, the pressure =
gradient=20
    across a dry suit when the diver is vertical in the water is about 3 =
psi and=20
    when the diver is in the prone  it is about 1 psi.  Type M =
and=20
    later B batting only loses about 40-60 percent of it insulation when =
loaded=20
    at these pressure and the other types of high loft battings loss =
85-95=20
    percent of their insulation under the same loading.  Because of =
this=20
    resistance to pressure loading type B is use in footwear.<BR><BR>The =
second=20
    property that made the M and later B batting the Navy's choice, for =
critical=20
    diving applications, was that dense nature of the batting.  The =
dens=20
    packing of the fibers which makes it compression resistant also =
helps it=20
    maintain more of its insulation when immersed, this is because the =
fibers=20
    are so close together there is not much space for water to=20
    ingress.<BR><BR>DUI looks at each new variant of 3Ms Thinsulate when =
it=20
    comes out for suability for divewear, to date none of these match up =
with=20
    thinsulate.  The only material know to come close is a material =
called=20
    Flectalon which come from the UK, however Flectalon dose not have =
wide=20
    distributed and it is more expensive.  (Red: NEDU Report: =
Insulation,=20
    Compressibility and Absorbency of Dry Suit =
Undergarments.)<BR><BR>Hope this=20
   
helps<BR><BR>Bob<BR><BR>Engineering<BR><BR><BR>Alex<BR>&
lt;BR>DUI uses=20
    Thinsulate garments with 200 and 400 gm/m2 Type B =
material.<BR><BR>Regarding=20
    the TR1000 garments. The temperature regulating material =
incorporates is=20
    micro capsules of wax attached to the fabric.  The concept is =
this wax=20
    melts at low temperatures 80-90F. The concept is that when you are =
working=20
    hard your skin temperatures warms up and the wax is melted and in =
the=20
    process some heat is stored. Then when you skin temperature drop the =
heat in=20
    the wax is avalable to you.  The problem is the amount of heat =
that you=20
    can store in the wax is minimal, depending on the environment it may =
only be=20
    minutes. Its like a car battery, the dome light will run for days =
without=20
    running down the battery, however you can only crank the starter for =

    minutes.  In theory material is most suited for things like =
skiing, you=20
    ski down the mountain and store a little heat which is then avalable =
during=20
    the next lift ride up the mountain. The key is this thermal storage =
layer=20
    must be next to the skin and anything between the skin and it is =
diminishing=20
    its effectiveness, it like using 50 ft jumper cables.<BR><BR>This=20
    temperature regulating material has been tested in diving =
application about=20
    four years ago in diving suits by the Navy and since then no further =
testing=20
    has been done, the result where not very positive. Also the wax heat =
storage=20
    materials have been around since the 60's and where tested then for=20
    diving.<BR><BR>I know the Army is looking at it in cold weather =
boots, for=20
    situation where the solder is going though cycles of work and =
resting like=20
    15 min on 15 min off. Some of the boots in the test with this =
temperature=20
    regulating material seam to work better then others.  It is =
just=20
    preliminary testing and the results are only minutes between the =
ones that=20
    work and don't work.<BR><BR>And yes the material was developed by =
NASA and=20
    the Air Force, however the application was for dealing with =
temperature=20
    spikes in in electronic cooling system.<BR><BR>If you want to see =
how it may=20
    work for your application you could purchase a pair of EC2=D4 Body=20
    Sensors  from Terramar at <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.terramarsports.com/sensors.html">http://www.terramarsp=
orts.com/sensors.html</A>.=20
    They make insulate underwave (long johns) for the outdoor market. =
The EC2=D4=20
    Body Sensors underwear contains Outlast temperature regulating=20
    fabric.<BR><BR>And yes you could wear this garment under the DUI =
Thinsulate=20
    Divewear, as you can any thing that will fit under the divewear as =
long as=20
    it fits under the divewear with out binding or restricting your =
movement and=20
    breathing. Wearing thing under or over the Thinsulate garment will =
only add=20
    to you total insulation, it is like the outdoors it's =
layering.<BR><BR>As=20
    far as the 100 gm/m2 insulation used in the TR1000 divewear I would =
assume=20
    that is a high loft type C variant Thinsulate which containing =
polyester=20
    fibers. The reason most people us this it is because it is less =
expensive=20
    than the type B.  Also you get the marketing advantage that you =
can put=20
    the Thinsulate name on you product and most customers would not know =
the=20
    difference, its marketing what can I say.<BR><BR>Best=20
    =
regards<BR><BR>Bob<BR><BR><BR><BR><><><><
><>=
;<><><><><><><><><>=
<><><><><><><><BR>Diving=20
    Unlimited International, Inc.<BR><BR>DUI Divers are a Breed Apart - =
Join the=20
    Pack!<BR>DOGS - DUI Owners Group DOGs at <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.DUI-Online">www.DUI-Online</A><BR><><><=
><><><><><><><><><&=
gt;<><><><><><><><><&g=
t;<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0DD4A.0C4D8820--


--
Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.

Navigate by Author: [Previous] [Next] [Author Search Index]
Navigate by Subject: [Previous] [Next] [Subject Search Index]

[Send Reply] [Send Message with New Topic]

[Search Selection] [Mailing List Home] [Home]