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Hello Alex,
=20
I'm not sure how much valid are some of the informations you've got =
from
DUI. About a year ago I was thinking about producing my own =
undergarment as
DUI just costs fortune for us EastEuropeans and it's also a hobby to =
produce
own diving stuff.
I discussed quite a lot with local 3M representative. He also suggested =
type
B as probably the best for diving. But gave me different pricing =
information
from yours. Type B was the cheapest one 3M produces. He gave me a big =
box of
this material for free. The material has very low compressibility, but =
also
absolutelly no flexibility. It's stiff like paper. Pull a little bit =
and it
would break. This is not an issue in boots as they do not need to flex =
a lot
but if you make a suit from it, it feels weird. You can hardly move in =
it
without restricting feeleing or you will simply break the insulation by
overstreching.
=20
So finally we came to conclusion to use more flexible material. The =
only
magic is to use the same density of fibres as it would be when we would =
use
type B. This ends in using more layers of thinner and flexible =
thinsulate in
order to compensate the other materials incorporated inside.
=20
Hopefully I will get permission to disasemble my friends DUI =
undergarment
soon and take a look inside, but I do not belive type B is the one DUI =
uses.
The suit has different strech properties as the "B" inside would allow.
=20
In dive wear you do not care too much about compressibility as the =
outside
preasure will compress any used material. But quite important is the =
ability
to transport moisture away from your body and the atribute of =
absorbabitlity
of water. Absorbability also greatly affects thermal insulating =
properties
when wet.
=20
Best regards
=20
Jozef Gliviak
Slovakia
=20
=20
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Vasauskas [mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*]
Sent: 11. m=E1ja 2001 11:00
To: DIR Quest; Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com
Subject: Story behind DUI 400 gram Thinsulate Undergarment


DUI customer service finally hooked me up with their R&D department to
answer my questions regarding the DUI C-4 that Trey insists on.  I have
learned not to doubt Trey's experience -- every time I try something he
says, it turns out he's right.  Nonetheless, there are several kinds of
Thinsulate (see
http://www.3m.com/market/consumer/thinsulate/insulations.html
<http://www.3m.com/market/consumer/thinsulate/insulations.html> ), and =
I
wanted the story behind the material DUI uses, an explanation about why
their Thinsulate may be different than the Thinsulate other =
manufacturers
use, and a comparison to other materials used by undergarment =
manufacturers.
Here's the story from Bob Stinton at DUI's R&D:
=20
The Thinsulate that is used in DUI divewear is Type B and the B stands =
for
boot so it is in the Footwear group

Thinsulate Insulation,
Thinsulate Flex Insulation
Thinsulate Lite Loft Insulation
Thinsulate Ultra Extreme Insulation
Thinsulate Ultra Active Insulation
 Thinsulate Insulation for Footwear

Little history: In the beginning there was only type M and it was not
insulation it was used for cleaning up oil spills. Type M which later =
became
type B is 100% polypropyline micro fibers.  As such is produce a dense =
and
compression resistant batting which is why it is use in boots.  However =
it
dose not make good ski jackets because is dose not have the loft like =
down
jackets. All the other variants of Thinsulate are blended with =
different
qualities of polyester fibers which act as springs and make it more =
lofty.
However this loft is highly compressible, the pressure gradient across =
a dry
suit when the diver is vertical in the water is about 3 psi and when =
the
diver is in the prone  it is about 1 psi.  Type M and later B batting =
only
loses about 40-60 percent of it insulation when loaded at these =
pressure and
the other types of high loft battings loss 85-95 percent of their =
insulation
under the same loading.  Because of this resistance to pressure loading =
type
B is use in footwear.

The second property that made the M and later B batting the Navy's =
choice,
for critical diving applications, was that dense nature of the batting. =
 The
dens packing of the fibers which makes it compression resistant also =
helps
it maintain more of its insulation when immersed, this is because the =
fibers
are so close together there is not much space for water to ingress.

DUI looks at each new variant of 3Ms Thinsulate when it comes out for
suability for divewear, to date none of these match up with thinsulate. =
 The
only material know to come close is a material called Flectalon which =
come
from the UK, however Flectalon dose not have wide distributed and it is =
more
expensive.  (Red: NEDU Report: Insulation, Compressibility and =
Absorbency of
Dry Suit Undergarments.)

Hope this helps

Bob

Engineering


Alex

DUI uses Thinsulate garments with 200 and 400 gm/m2 Type B material.

Regarding the TR1000 garments. The temperature regulating material
incorporates is micro capsules of wax attached to the fabric.  The =
concept
is this wax melts at low temperatures 80-90F. The concept is that when =
you
are working hard your skin temperatures warms up and the wax is melted =
and
in the process some heat is stored. Then when you skin temperature drop =
the
heat in the wax is avalable to you.  The problem is the amount of heat =
that
you can store in the wax is minimal, depending on the environment it =
may
only be minutes. Its like a car battery, the dome light will run for =
days
without running down the battery, however you can only crank the =
starter for
minutes.  In theory material is most suited for things like skiing, you =
ski
down the mountain and store a little heat which is then avalable during =
the
next lift ride up the mountain. The key is this thermal storage layer =
must
be next to the skin and anything between the skin and it is diminishing =
its
effectiveness, it like using 50 ft jumper cables.

This temperature regulating material has been tested in diving =
application
about four years ago in diving suits by the Navy and since then no =
further
testing has been done, the result where not very positive. Also the wax =
heat
storage materials have been around since the 60's and where tested then =
for
diving.

I know the Army is looking at it in cold weather boots, for situation =
where
the solder is going though cycles of work and resting like 15 min on 15 =
min
off. Some of the boots in the test with this temperature regulating =
material
seam to work better then others.  It is just preliminary testing and =
the
results are only minutes between the ones that work and don't work.

And yes the material was developed by NASA and the Air Force, however =
the
application was for dealing with temperature spikes in in electronic =
cooling
system.

If you want to see how it may work for your application you could =
purchase a
pair of EC2=D4 Body Sensors  from Terramar at
http://www.terramarsports.com/sensors.html
<http://www.terramarsports.com/sensors.html> . They make insulate =
underwave
(long johns) for the outdoor market. The EC2=D4 Body Sensors underwear
contains Outlast temperature regulating fabric.

And yes you could wear this garment under the DUI Thinsulate Divewear, =
as
you can any thing that will fit under the divewear as long as it fits =
under
the divewear with out binding or restricting your movement and =
breathing.
Wearing thing under or over the Thinsulate garment will only add to you
total insulation, it is like the outdoors it's layering.

As far as the 100 gm/m2 insulation used in the TR1000 divewear I would
assume that is a high loft type C variant Thinsulate which containing
polyester fibers. The reason most people us this it is because it is =
less
expensive than the type B.  Also you get the marketing advantage that =
you
can put the Thinsulate name on you product and most customers would not =
know
the difference, its marketing what can I say.

Best regards

Bob



<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><>
Diving Unlimited International, Inc.

DUI Divers are a Breed Apart - Join the Pack!
DOGS - DUI Owners Group DOGs at www.DUI-Online <http://www.DUI-Online>=20
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><>



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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=018042309-15052001>Hello 
Alex,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=018042309-15052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=018042309-15052001>I'm 
not sure how much valid are some of the informations you've got from DUI. About 
a year ago I was thinking about producing my own undergarment as DUI just costs 
fortune for us EastEuropeans and it's also a hobby to produce own diving 
stuff.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=018042309-15052001>I 
discussed quite a lot with local 3M representative. He also suggested type B as 
probably the best for diving. But gave me different pricing information from 
yours. Type B was the cheapest one 3M produces. He gave me a big box of this 
material for free. The material has very low compressibility, but 
also absolutelly no flexibility. It's stiff like paper. Pull a little bit 
and it would break. This is not an issue in boots as they do not need to flex a 
lot but if you make a suit from it, it feels weird. You can hardly move in 
it without restricting feeleing or you will simply break the insulation by 
overstreching.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=018042309-15052001>So 
finally we came to conclusion to use more flexible material. The only magic is 
to use the same density of fibres as it would be when we would use type B. This 
ends in using more layers of thinner and flexible thinsulate in order to 
compensate the other materials incorporated
inside.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=018042309-15052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=018042309-15052001>Hopefully I will get permission to disasemble my 
friends DUI undergarment soon and take a look inside, but I do not belive type
B 
is the one DUI uses. The suit has different strech properties as the "B" inside 
would allow.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=018042309-15052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=018042309-15052001>In 
dive wear you </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2><SPAN 
class=018042309-15052001>do not care too much about compressibility as the 
outside preasure will compress any used material. But quite important is the 
ability to transport moisture away from your body and the atribute of 
absorbabitlity of water. Absorbability also greatly affects thermal 
insulating properties when wet.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=018042309-15052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=018042309-15052001>Best 
regards</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=018042309-15052001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=018042309-15052001>Jozef 
Gliviak</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=018042309-15052001>Slovakia</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Alex Vasauskas 
  [mailto:surlyc@al*.ne*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> 11. m�ja 2001
11:00<BR><B>To:</B> 
  DIR Quest; Techdiver@Aquanaut. Com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Story behind
DUI 400 
  gram Thinsulate Undergarment<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>DUI customer service finally hooked me up with their
R&D 
  department to answer my questions regarding the DUI C-4 that
Trey insists 
  on.  I have learned not to doubt Trey's experience -- every time I try 
  something he says, it turns out he's right.  Nonetheless, there are 
  several kinds of Thinsulate (see <A 
 
href="http://www.3m.com/market/consumer/thinsulate/insulations.html">http://www.
3m.com/market/consumer/thinsulate/insulations.html</A>), 
  and I wanted the story behind the material DUI uses, an explanation 
  about why their Thinsulate may be different than the Thinsulate other 
  manufacturers use, and a comparison to other materials used by undergarment 
  manufacturers.  Here's the story from Bob Stinton at DUI's 
  R&D:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV>The Thinsulate that is used in DUI divewear is Type B and the B
stands 
  for boot so it is in the Footwear group<BR><BR>Thinsulate 
  Insulation,<BR>Thinsulate Flex Insulation<BR>Thinsulate Lite Loft 
  Insulation<BR>Thinsulate Ultra Extreme Insulation<BR>Thinsulate Ultra
Active 
  Insulation<BR> Thinsulate Insulation for Footwear<BR><BR>Little
history: 
  In the beginning there was only type M and it was not insulation it was used 
  for cleaning up oil spills. Type M which later became type B is 100% 
  polypropyline micro fibers.  As such is produce a dense and compression 
  resistant batting which is why it is use in boots.  However it dose not 
  make good ski jackets because is dose not have the loft like down jackets.
All 
  the other variants of Thinsulate are blended with different qualities of 
  polyester fibers which act as springs and make it more lofty. However this 
  loft is highly compressible, the pressure gradient across a dry suit when the 
  diver is vertical in the water is about 3 psi and when the diver is in the 
  prone  it is about 1 psi.  Type M and later B batting only loses 
  about 40-60 percent of it insulation when loaded at these pressure and the 
  other types of high loft battings loss 85-95 percent of their insulation
under 
  the same loading.  Because of this resistance to pressure loading type B 
  is use in footwear.<BR><BR>The second property that made the M and
later B 
  batting the Navy's choice, for critical diving applications, was that dense 
  nature of the batting.  The dens packing of the fibers which makes it 
  compression resistant also helps it maintain more of its insulation when 
  immersed, this is because the fibers are so close together there is not much 
  space for water to ingress.<BR><BR>DUI looks at each new variant of 3Ms 
  Thinsulate when it comes out for suability for divewear, to date none of
these 
  match up with thinsulate.  The only material know to come close is a 
  material called Flectalon which come from the UK, however Flectalon dose not 
  have wide distributed and it is more expensive.  (Red: NEDU Report: 
  Insulation, Compressibility and Absorbency of Dry Suit 
  Undergarments.)<BR><BR>Hope this 
 
helps<BR><BR>Bob<BR><BR>Engineering<BR><BR><BR>Alex<BR>&
lt;BR>DUI uses Thinsulate 
  garments with 200 and 400 gm/m2 Type B material.<BR><BR>Regarding the
TR1000 
  garments. The temperature regulating material incorporates is micro capsules 
  of wax attached to the fabric.  The concept is this wax melts at low 
  temperatures 80-90F. The concept is that when you are working hard your skin 
  temperatures warms up and the wax is melted and in the process some heat is 
  stored. Then when you skin temperature drop the heat in the wax is avalable
to 
  you.  The problem is the amount of heat that you can store in the wax is 
  minimal, depending on the environment it may only be minutes. Its like a car 
  battery, the dome light will run for days without running down the battery, 
  however you can only crank the starter for minutes.  In theory material 
  is most suited for things like skiing, you ski down the mountain and store a 
  little heat which is then avalable during the next lift ride up the mountain. 
  The key is this thermal storage layer must be next to the skin and anything 
  between the skin and it is diminishing its effectiveness, it like using 50 ft 
  jumper cables.<BR><BR>This temperature regulating material has been
tested in 
  diving application about four years ago in diving suits by the Navy and since 
  then no further testing has been done, the result where not very positive. 
  Also the wax heat storage materials have been around since the 60's and where 
  tested then for diving.<BR><BR>I know the Army is looking at it in cold 
  weather boots, for situation where the solder is going though cycles of work 
  and resting like 15 min on 15 min off. Some of the boots in the test with
this 
  temperature regulating material seam to work better then others.  It is 
  just preliminary testing and the results are only minutes between the ones 
  that work and don't work.<BR><BR>And yes the material was developed by
NASA 
  and the Air Force, however the application was for dealing with temperature 
  spikes in in electronic cooling system.<BR><BR>If you want to see how
it may 
  work for your application you could purchase a pair of EC2� Body
Sensors  
  from Terramar at <A 
 
href="http://www.terramarsports.com/sensors.html">http://www.terramarsports.com/
sensors.html</A>. 
  They make insulate underwave (long johns) for the outdoor market. The EC2� 
  Body Sensors underwear contains Outlast temperature regulating 
  fabric.<BR><BR>And yes you could wear this garment under the DUI
Thinsulate 
  Divewear, as you can any thing that will fit under the divewear as long as it 
  fits under the divewear with out binding or restricting your movement and 
  breathing. Wearing thing under or over the Thinsulate garment will only add
to 
  you total insulation, it is like the outdoors it's layering.<BR><BR>As
far as 
  the 100 gm/m2 insulation used in the TR1000 divewear I would assume that is a 
  high loft type C variant Thinsulate which containing polyester fibers. The 
  reason most people us this it is because it is less expensive than the type 
  B.  Also you get the marketing advantage that you can put the Thinsulate 
  name on you product and most customers would not know the difference, its 
  marketing what can I say.<BR><BR>Best 
 
regards<BR><BR>Bob<BR><BR><BR><BR><><><><
><><><><><><><><><><
><><><><><><><><BR>Diving 
  Unlimited International, Inc.<BR><BR>DUI Divers are a Breed Apart -
Join the 
  Pack!<BR>DOGS - DUI Owners Group DOGs at <A 
 
href="http://www.DUI-Online">www.DUI-Online</A><BR><><><>
;<><><><><><><><><><>
;<><><><><><><><><BR></DIV
></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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