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Thom ,, Good morning...
You are in the wrong lane , trying to to the dive the wrong way the
wrong gas !!!
First you are planing a deco dive without being trained for it. If im
mistaken
and you have already taken a Decompretion procedures course
then automatically that means that you have obvious qualified as Tech
Nitrox.
So why on earth do you choose to decompress on a gas that contains 79%
Nitrogen ??????????? I run your profile with the correct gas ( Nitrox
50% )
and i get half the deco time you have to do on air.
Manos Manoli
Limassol - Cyprus
www.smiley.cy.net/cytech
Thom Hadfield wrote:
> Thanks for the advice. I do have a plan sorry I wasn't more clear in
> the post. I will probably dive on 25% using this secedule Waypoint
> at 140ft for 20:00 (22) on Air, PPO2 1.076, END 140
> Deep Stop at 120ft for 0:33 (23) on Air, PPO2 0.952, END 120
>
> Deep Stop at 110ft for 0:33 (24) on Air, PPO2 0.890, END 110
>
> Deep Stop at 100ft for 0:33 (24) on Air, PPO2 0.829, END 100
>
> Deep Stop at 90ft for 0:33 (25) on Air, PPO2 0.767, END 90
> Deep Stop at 80ft for 0:33 (26) on Air, PPO2 0.705, END 80
> Deep Stop at 70ft for 0:33 (26) on Air, PPO2 0.643, END 70
> Deep Stop at 60ft for 0:33 (27) on Air, PPO2 0.581, END 60
> Deep Stop at 50ft for 0:33 (27) on Air, PPO2 0.519, END 50
> Deep Stop at 40ft for 0:33 (28) on Air, PPO2 0.457, END 40
> Norm Stop at 20ft for 6:00 (34) on Air, PPO2 0.334, END 20
> Norm Stop at 10ft for 17:00 (51) on Air, PPO2 0.272, END
> 10 TOTAL DECO TIME: 28 minutes.
> DIVE RUN TIME: 51 minutes.
> CNS Total: 9.0%
> OTU's: 26 I plan on diving either a 120 or double 80's. I am leaning
> toward a 120 just for familarity I normally dive with a 120. My dive
> buddy has a lot more expierence than I do but also has no deco
> expierence. I am using laminated navy tables to take with me and I
> have a computer that will calculate deco to 350' I am using zplan to
> plan out the dive and it is the plan I intend to dive if everything
> goes as planned. However I will have tables and a computer for back
> up. I will carry an ascent reel and an extra 80 or 120 (haven't
> decided which) stage bottle down with me and attach it to the wreck
> near the ascent line. My buddy is planning the same. I may also carry
> it with me these are the things I plan on working out in a quarry.
> Also we are considering hanging another tank off the bow of the boat
> as a third extra air tank.I want to do the dive not because of depth
> but because I want more than 10 mins on this wreck. I dive safe the
> last time I dove the wreck I planned for 140'. The wreck is in
> something like 135 feet but I added in a little for error and safety
> incase something happened myself or my buddy hit bottom. Anyways my
> max depth was 128' and my computer told me I had another 9 mins left
> at that depth but I procedded back to the ascent line according to my
> dive plan. For me or my buddy this isn't a personal accomplishment it
> is wanting extra time to view the splendor of this wreck. We didn't
> decide to do a deco dive to prove anything we decided we wanted to
> have more time at that depth and the only way was a deco dive and we
> felt ok doing it on air or 25%. We are planning no penetration except
> a descent and ascent into the main wide open cargo hold.I believe
> trimix is good and I had not even considered trimx because I felt this
> dive plan was acceptable to do on air or 25%. But when I posted a
> question for tips and suggestions I had a major response that this was
> unsafe on air and I must use trimix or a variation there of. I feel
> comfortable on this wreck and the depth on air. However I didn't know
> what to expect extending my time into decopression ranges.Sorry for
> the lengthy discussion but I thought it might better give you an idea
> of my dive plan. Thanks Thom
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joe
> To: Thom Hadfield
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 8:19 AM
> Subject: Re: Re. Deco diving
> Hi Thom: Do yourself a big favor and just dive. Forget
> about trimix for a while and forget about depth. The way to
> become a proficient and safe diver is to evolve into it. At
> less than 100 dives thinking about trimix is ludicrous. I
> know the agencies may list 100 dives as a prerequisite for
> trimix, but believe it that you are not ready even at 200
> dives. Let me explain. You could learn to execute a trimix
> dive after 50 dives. As a college student you most probably
> could learn the theories and the math in 20 minutes. Its
> probably all stuff you already know. What you can't learn
> is the stuff that only time and experience will teach you.
> When you make your screw ups (and you will, just like the
> rest of us) you want them to occur and a depth and in a
> circumstance you can survive. A mishandled incident at 75'
> is quite survivable. That same event at 300' or with a
> serious decompression ceiling will probably kill you. If
> you review most of the accidents, one of the common threads
> in them is people diving beyond their experience level.
> They take a course, get certified and then kill themselves
> doing something stupid like an uncontrolled ascent. Helium
> is no voodoo mystery gas. Diving it is essentially the same
> as air diving. What you need are good in water skills,
> excellent buoyancy control and the ability to handle task
> loading. What makes it challenging to the novice is not the
> gas. It is the ability to monitor your deco schedule,
> switch to the correct gas at the correct depth while making
> sure your buddy is on the correct gas, deploy a lift bag and
> possibly manage an unexpected emergency like you broke the
> knob off your deco bottle in the closed position or tangled
> the reel on the lift bag - all at the same time and without
> endangering yourself and others. If you jump right into
> advanced diving, you will surely "pass" the courses but in
> spite of that you won't have the experience level to fall
> back on when the sh** hits the fan. That experience is what
> will keep you alive and you won't have it. The skills you
> need to successfully execute any advanced dive begin with
> basic diving skills. Refine those skills and build up that
> experience and evolve into the advanced diving. For now,
> content yourself with recreational level diving and work on
> the skills specific to advanced diving (reels, lift bags
> multiple bottles etc. etc.) and when you are ready to take
> the courses you will really reap the full benefit of your
> instructors knowledge because he won't have to waste time
> teaching you things you should already know. >>I guess the
> risks of narcosis which at the depths and times I have done
> I didn't experience>>any is not that great at the dive I am
> planning. I have heard it is a fairly safe plan to that it
> is >>not a safe plan. Well that's a little of my background
> and thankyou for your reply's Now to answer your
> questions. You won't "feel" the narcosis until it gets to
> the point of the ridiculous. Much like after "one beer" you
> are impaired but don't know it. As far as a plan goes, you
> have none. (Other than to go to 140' which is not a
> plan.) Are you diving a single tank or doubles? Have you
> made provisions for air emergencies? What are your air
> rules? What is your run time? Is this a planned
> decompression dive? If not, do you know what to do if you
> overstay and wind up in decompression? If it is do you have
> contingency tables? Will you have enough gas to
> decompress? Are you using a computer and if so, do you have
> a table to back it up? What about your buddy? Is he at the
> same level as you? Will he be an asset or a liability in
> the event of a mishap? If this is one of those personal
> depth things my advice is to can it. If it is a legitimate
> dive with a purpose other than depth, think about the
> questions I have asked you and formulate a dive plan. That
> said, should you have any questions, feel free to ask. If I
> can answer them I will. Also, take note we have had two
> fatalities this week. One a highly experienced "tech"
> instructor and the other a college student open water diver
> who was curious about a cave. Walk before you run. Best of
> luck and dive safe. Joe Citelli
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thom Hadfield
> To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 8:23 PM
> Subject: Re. Deco diving
> I am planning on doing the ebber ward which I
> have been on 3 times. The max depth I reached on
> the ward was 128'. I have been over 100' probably
> 8 times wothout getting out my log. I have dove
> several wrecks in the 40 to 100' foot range. I
> dive a lot in the st. Clair river which has low
> vis and current. I do most of my practice dives
> there. I am currently signed up for Nitrox. I also
> do not have 100 dives in yet which seems to be the
> basic first step for Trimix. I will have those in
> by the end of this year. All of my expierence is
> in cold greatlakes water. I do not plan any wreck
> penetration for this dive except for a verticle
> decent and ascent into the wide open cargo hole
> which I have done on a previous dive. The max
> depth for the ward unless you start to dig a hole
> underneath the wreck is just dhy of 140' so I am
> planning my dive for 140 but I donot plan on
> spending much time at that depth.I am interested
> in trimix and I do believe it to be safer than air
> or nitrox at this depth but I have not found a
> store in my area who teaches it. Also it appears
> online that the training runs about $800 which to
> me as a college student is a bit high. However I
> know the response of what price can you put on a
> life will come up. I guess the risks of narcosis
> which at the depths and times I have done I didn't
> expierence any is not that great at the dive I am
> planning. I have heard it is a fairly safe plan to
> that it is not a safe plan. Well thats a little of
> my background and thankyou for your reply's
>
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Thom ,, Good morning...
<br>You are in the wrong lane , trying to to the dive the wrong way the
wrong gas !!!
<br>First you are planing a deco dive without being trained for it. If
im mistaken
<br>and you have already taken a Decompretion procedures course
<br>then automatically that means that you have obvious qualified as Tech
Nitrox.
<br>So why on earth do you choose to decompress on a gas that contains
79%
<br>Nitrogen ??????????? I run your profile with the correct gas ( Nitrox
50% )
<br>and i get half the deco time you have to do on air.
<p>Manos Manoli
<br>Limassol - Cyprus
<br><a href="www.smiley.cy.net/cytech">www.smiley.cy.net/cytech</a>
<p>Thom Hadfield wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Thanks
for the advice. I do have a plan sorry I wasn't more clear in the post.
I will probably dive on 25% using this
secedule</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font
size=-1>Waypoint
at 140ft for 20:00 (22) on
Air,
PPO2 1.076, END 140</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Deep Stop at 120ft
for
0:33 (23) on Air, PPO2 0.952,
END 120</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Deep Stop at 110ft
for
0:33 (24) on Air, PPO2 0.890,
END 110</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Deep Stop at 100ft
for
0:33 (24) on Air, PPO2 0.829,
END 100</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Deep Stop at 90ft
for
0:33 (25) on Air, PPO2 0.767,
END 90</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Deep Stop at 80ft
for
0:33 (26) on Air, PPO2 0.705,
END 80</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Deep Stop at 70ft
for
0:33 (26) on Air, PPO2 0.643,
END 70</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Deep Stop at 60ft
for
0:33 (27) on Air, PPO2 0.581,
END 60</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Deep Stop at 50ft
for
0:33 (27) on Air, PPO2 0.519,
END 50</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Deep Stop at 40ft
for
0:33 (28) on Air, PPO2 0.457,
END 40</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Norm Stop at 20ft
for
6:00 (34) on Air, PPO2 0.334,
END 20</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Norm Stop at 10ft for
17:00 (51) on Air, PPO2 0.272,
END 10</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>TOTAL
DECO TIME:
28 minutes.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>DIVE RUN TIME: 51
minutes.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>CNS Total:
9.0%</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>OTU's:
26</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I
plan on diving either a 120 or double 80's. I am leaning toward a
120 just for familarity I normally dive with a 120. My dive buddy has a
lot more expierence than I do but also has no deco expierence. I am using
laminated navy tables to take with me and I have a computer that
will calculate deco to 350' I am using zplan to plan out the dive and it
is the plan I intend to dive if everything goes as planned. However I will
have tables and a computer for back up. I will carry an ascent reel and
an extra 80 or 120 (haven't decided which) stage bottle down with me and
attach it to the wreck near the ascent line. My buddy is planning the same.
I may also carry it with me these are the things I plan on working out
in a quarry. Also we are considering hanging another tank off the bow of
the boat as a third extra air tank.I want to do the dive not because of
depth but because I want more than 10 mins on this
wreck.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1> I
dive safe the last time I dove the wreck I planned for 140'. The wreck
is in something like 135 feet but I added in a little for error and safety
incase something happened myself or my buddy hit bottom. Anyways my max
depth was 128' and my computer told me I had another 9 mins left at that
depth but I procedded back to the ascent line according to my dive
plan. For me or my buddy this isn't a personal accomplishment it is wanting
extra time to view the splendor of this wreck. We didn't decide to do a
deco dive to prove anything we decided we wanted to have more time at that
depth and the only way was a deco dive and we felt ok doing it on air or
25%. We are planning no penetration except a descent and ascent into the
main wide open cargo hold.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font
size=-1>I
believe trimix is good and I had not even considered trimx because I felt
this dive plan was acceptable to do on air or 25%. But when I posted a
question for tips and suggestions I had a major response that this was
unsafe on air and I must use trimix or a variation there of. I feel comfortable
on this wreck and the depth on air. However I didn't know what to expect
extending my time into decopression ranges.</font></font><font
face="Arial"><font size=-1>Sorry
for the lengthy discussion but I thought it might better give you an idea
of my dive plan.</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font
size=-1>Thanks
Thom</font></font>
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div>
<div
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:joe@po*.co*" title="joe@po*.co*">Joe</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:thom.hadfield@ho*.co*" title="thom.hadfield@ho*.co*">Thom
Hadfield</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 06, 2001 8:19
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: Re. Deco
diving</div>
<font size=-1>Hi Thom:</font> <font size=-1>Do yourself a
big
favor and just dive. Forget about trimix for a while and forget about
depth. The way to become a proficient and safe diver is to evolve
into it. At less than 100 dives thinking about trimix is ludicrous.
I know the agencies may list 100 dives as a prerequisite for trimix, but
believe it that you are not ready even at 200 dives.</font> <font
size=-1>Let
me explain. You could learn to execute a trimix dive after 50 dives.
As a college student you most probably could learn the theories and the
math in 20 minutes. Its probably all stuff you already know.
What you can't learn is the stuff that only time and experience will teach
you. When you make your screw ups (and you will, just like the rest
of us) you want them to occur and a depth and in a circumstance you can
survive. A mishandled incident at 75' is quite survivable.
That same event at 300' or with a serious decompression ceiling will probably
kill you. If you review most of the accidents, one of the common
threads in them is people diving beyond their experience level. They
take a course, get certified and then kill themselves doing something stupid
like an uncontrolled ascent.</font> <font size=-1>Helium is no voodoo
mystery gas. Diving it is essentially the same as air diving.
What you need are good in water skills, excellent buoyancy control and
the ability to handle task loading. What makes it challenging to
the novice is not the gas. It is the ability to monitor your deco
schedule, switch to the correct gas at the correct depth while making sure
your buddy is on the correct gas, deploy a lift bag and possibly manage
an unexpected emergency like you broke the knob off your deco bottle in
the closed position or tangled the reel on the lift bag - all at the same
time and without endangering yourself and others. If you jump right
into advanced diving, you will surely "pass" the courses but in spite of
that you won't have the experience level to fall back on when the sh**
hits the fan. That experience is what will keep you alive and you
won't have it.</font> <font size=-1>The skills you need to
successfully
execute any advanced dive begin with basic diving skills. Refine
those skills and build up that experience and evolve into the advanced
diving. For now, content yourself with recreational level diving
and work on the skills specific to advanced diving (reels, lift bags multiple
bottles etc. etc.) and when you are ready to take the courses you will
really reap the full benefit of your instructors knowledge because he won't
have to waste time teaching you things you should already
know.</font> <font size=-1>>>I
guess the risks of narcosis which at the depths and times I have done I
didn't experience</font><font size=-1>>>any is not that great at the dive
I am planning. I have heard it is a fairly safe plan to that it is >>not
a safe plan. Well that's a little of my background and thankyou for your
reply's</font> <font size=-1>Now to answer your
questions.</font> <font size=-1>You
won't "feel" the narcosis until it gets to the point of the ridiculous.
Much like after "one beer" you are impaired but don't know
it.</font> <font size=-1>As
far as a plan goes, you have none. (Other than to go to 140' which is not
a plan.)</font> <font size=-1>Are you diving a single tank or
doubles?
Have you made provisions for air emergencies? What are your air
rules?
What is your run time? Is this a planned decompression dive?
If not, do you know what to do if you overstay and wind up in
decompression?
If it is do you have contingency tables? Will you have enough gas
to decompress? Are you using a computer and if so, do you have a
table to back it up? What about your buddy? Is he at the same
level as you? Will he be an asset or a liability in the event of
a mishap?</font> <font size=-1>If this is one of those personal depth
things my advice is to can it. If it is a legitimate dive with a
purpose other than depth, think about the questions I have asked you and
formulate a dive plan.</font> <font size=-1>That said, should you
have any questions, feel free to ask. If I can answer them I will.
Also, take note we have had two fatalities this week. One a highly
experienced "tech" instructor and the other a college student open water
diver who was curious about a cave. Walk before you
run.</font> <font size=-1>Best
of luck and dive safe.</font> <font size=-1>Joe
Citelli</font>
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div>
<div
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:thom.hadfield@ho*.co*" title="thom.hadfield@ho*.co*">Thom
Hadfield</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com"
title="techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 10, 2001 8:23
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re. Deco diving</div>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I am planning on doing the ebber
ward which I have been on 3 times. The max depth I reached on the ward
was 128'. I have been over 100' probably 8 times wothout getting out my
log. I have dove several wrecks in the 40 to 100' foot range. I dive a
lot in the st. Clair river which has low vis and current. I do most of
my practice dives there. I am currently signed up for Nitrox. I also do
not have 100 dives in yet which seems to be the basic first step for Trimix.
I will have those in by the end of this year. All of my expierence is in
cold greatlakes water. I do not plan any wreck penetration for this dive
except for a verticle decent and ascent into the wide open cargo hole which
I have done on a previous dive. The max depth for the ward unless you start
to dig a hole underneath the wreck is just dhy of 140' so I am planning
my dive for 140 but I donot plan on spending much time at that
depth.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I
am interested in trimix and I do believe it to be safer than air or nitrox
at this depth but I have not found a store in my area who teaches it. Also
it appears online that the training runs about $800 which to me as a college
student is a bit high. However I know the response of what price can you
put on a life will come up. I guess the risks of narcosis which at the
depths and times I have done I didn't expierence any is not that great
at the dive I am planning. I have heard it is a fairly safe plan to that
it is not a safe plan. Well thats a little of my background and thankyou
for your reply's</font></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>
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