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----- Original Message -----=20
From: Joe Citelli=20
To: Thom Hadfield=20
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: Re. Deco diving
>I will probably dive on 25% using this secedule=20
"Why 25% and do you know what the MOD is?"
=20
MOD by charts is 145 last summer it was about 135'
"Your table is for air. Will using 25% on that table violate your =
CNS clock?"
no it will not .I am using the air for added safety. I also have =
planned it for 25%. Nitrox is not available for refill near where I am =
diving so incase I have to dive air I will but also I figured it would =
add in an extra safety factor.
"Have you dove with an 80 or 120 stage and do you know for sure you =
can manage it? BTW, using a 120 for a stage is not good. 80's make =
much better stage bottles."
I have dove with an 80 as a stage an as I mentioned in my first post =
my buddy and I wil be preparing for this dive in a quarry and I was =
going to determine which would be best to use.
=20
"The third air tank is over complicating the whole thing. =
Realistically, you should be able to do this whole dive on a single 80. =
(I am NOT suggesting you do that.)"
=20
I dont agree it is their for a safety reason. Incase for what ever =
reason soemthing happened where that was the only extra bottle that =
could be reached. I am not planning on using it but it will be there if =
needed.
" You will most probably spend the bulk of your time in the 115'-120' =
range. You will have either a 120 or double 80's PLUS a stage as a =
safety. (If you feel you NEED the stage to do the dive you are not =
ready for it. This is by no means a stage dive.)"
I figured a total of 95 cu' for the whole dive if nothing goes wrong. =
And a stage tank may be the wrong term but I wanted enough spare air =
down there that if myself or my buddy had a complete system failure that =
their was still enough air between the 2 of us and our redundance to =
solve the problem at depth not on the surface.
" Also, if that stage is your alternate air source, it does you know =
good clipped to the ascent line."
My buddy is my alternate air source that tank is emergency air. Thats =
how I figured it.
"Have you figured redundancy into this plan? (Regs, air supply, =
buoyancy.)"
2 divers with reg and octo
2 spare tanks with regs
I had no redundancy for bouyancy except for removing wieght which I =
hav had to do before when I broke the fill valve on my bc at depth I =
removed some weight not all as needed to get to the surface.
"Will your buoyancy device support you with the added weight?"=20
Yes
" Will swimming with a stage impair your air consumption?"
It could thats what I am going to work out in the quarry
" What air management rules will you use?"
I try to follow 1/3 out 1/3 return/ 1/3 safety
" How much gas do you expect to use and what pressure do you expect =
to finish the dive with? "
95 cu' consumption
will depend on my configuration I assume between 500-1000 psig
What will your turn pressure be? What will your buddies turn =
pressure be?
" If you and your buddy are using dissimilar tanks, do you know how =
to compare SAC rates to be sure you have enough gas to buddy breathe to =
the surface?"
No this is an area that I would and could need a hand with. the way I =
figured it that was the reason for the extra tanks with us so the =
situation of buddy breathing to the surface would not apply. But I can =
see where keeping the tank with you and not tying it to the wreck would =
be more helpful
"Do you know what you will do if you can't find the ascent line?"
Yes I am carrying a reel and a lift bag
" Do you know how to prevent that from happening?"
Yes I could use a reel to attach to the ascent line however this wreck =
has ascent lines attached to both the bow and the stern ans I am =
familiar with both of thier locations
" If the ascent line breaks away, will you realize it or will you =
wander about the wreck looking for something that isn't there, waste gas =
and exponentially increase your decompression obligation?"
See above
"Take the appropriate courses and have someone knowledgeable rubber =
stamp what you think you know. That way, if your knowledge is incorrect =
you will only feel silly and not dead. Until then, I seriously =
recommend doing two 10 minute dives with a 3 hr. surface interval. =
Enjoy the wreck and use your ascent time to practice ascent rates and =
deco stops for future dives. That way, if you need to go to the =
surface, you can do it with no problem. By your own admission, you only =
have 8 or so dives past 100' and to put yourself in a deco obligation at =
this experience level is asking for it.=20
Remember that the trick is to evolve into it."
"Your table is not what I would use but it is ok. If you want to =
extend the dive, than dive the computer and keep it out of the deco =
mode."
Actually it will probably be more like this type of dive. I figure by =
computer I wont be in deco. I am treating it as a deco dive because =
worse case scenario It could be.
" Bring tables for the longer times because per tables you will be in =
decompression even though you are not per the computer. If you computer =
fails, your buddies computer becomes your back up and the tables back =
that up should his also fail or you get separated. Personally, I don't =
use computers. Learn to become proficient with tables and in time you =
will develop a computer between your ears and will be able to improvise =
on the fly.=20
I know this is not what you wanted to hear but it is the truth. I =
will not encourage you to do this but I will answer your questions as =
best I can."
"BTW, the actual death toll is at about 5 or 6 this week. The 2 I =
previously mentioned plus 2 recreational level divers in the Fla. Keys =
and 1 (possibly 2) "tech" divers in California trying to do a 300+ dive =
they thought they knew how to do. Keep this in mind and govern yourself =
accordingly."
More if you count the 2 from Japan=20
Good luck and dive safe.
Joe =20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Thom Hadfield=20
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com ; Joe=20
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: Re. Deco diving
Thanks for the advice. I do have a plan sorry I wasn't more clear in =
the post. I will probably dive on 25% using this secedule
Waypoint at 140ft for 20:00 (22) on Air, PPO2 1.076, END =
140
Deep Stop at 120ft for 0:33 (23) on Air, PPO2 0.952, END =
120
Deep Stop at 110ft for 0:33 (24) on Air, PPO2 0.890, END =
110
Deep Stop at 100ft for 0:33 (24) on Air, PPO2 0.829, END =
100
Deep Stop at 90ft for 0:33 (25) on Air, PPO2 0.767, END 90
Deep Stop at 80ft for 0:33 (26) on Air, PPO2 0.705, END 80
Deep Stop at 70ft for 0:33 (26) on Air, PPO2 0.643, END 70
Deep Stop at 60ft for 0:33 (27) on Air, PPO2 0.581, END 60
Deep Stop at 50ft for 0:33 (27) on Air, PPO2 0.519, END 50
Deep Stop at 40ft for 0:33 (28) on Air, PPO2 0.457, END 40
Norm Stop at 20ft for 6:00 (34) on Air, PPO2 0.334, END 20
Norm Stop at 10ft for 17:00 (51) on Air, PPO2 0.272, END 10
TOTAL DECO TIME: 28 minutes.
DIVE RUN TIME: 51 minutes.
CNS Total: 9.0%
OTU's: 26
I plan on diving either a 120 or double 80's. I am leaning toward a =
120 just for familarity I normally dive with a 120. My dive buddy has a =
lot more expierence than I do but also has no deco expierence. I am =
using laminated navy tables to take with me and I have a computer that =
will calculate deco to 350' I am using zplan to plan out the dive and it =
is the plan I intend to dive if everything goes as planned. However I =
will have tables and a computer for back up. I will carry an ascent reel =
and an extra 80 or 120 (haven't decided which) stage bottle down with me =
and attach it to the wreck near the ascent line. My buddy is planning =
the same. I may also carry it with me these are the things I plan on =
working out in a quarry. Also we are considering hanging another tank =
off the bow of the boat as a third extra air tank.I want to do the dive =
not because of depth but because I want more than 10 mins on this wreck.
I dive safe the last time I dove the wreck I planned for 140'. The =
wreck is in something like 135 feet but I added in a little for error =
and safety incase something happened myself or my buddy hit bottom. =
Anyways my max depth was 128' and my computer told me I had another 9 =
mins left at that depth but I procedded back to the ascent line =
according to my dive plan. For me or my buddy this isn't a personal =
accomplishment it is wanting extra time to view the splendor of this =
wreck. We didn't decide to do a deco dive to prove anything we decided =
we wanted to have more time at that depth and the only way was a deco =
dive and we felt ok doing it on air or 25%. We are planning no =
penetration except a descent and ascent into the main wide open cargo =
hold.
I believe trimix is good and I had not even considered trimx because =
I felt this dive plan was acceptable to do on air or 25%. But when I =
posted a question for tips and suggestions I had a major response that =
this was unsafe on air and I must use trimix or a variation there of. I =
feel comfortable on this wreck and the depth on air. However I didn't =
know what to expect extending my time into decopression ranges.
Sorry for the lengthy discussion but I thought it might better give =
you an idea of my dive plan.=20
Thanks Thom
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Joe=20
To: Thom Hadfield=20
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: Re. Deco diving
Hi Thom:
Do yourself a big favor and just dive. Forget about trimix for a =
while and forget about depth. The way to become a proficient and safe =
diver is to evolve into it. At less than 100 dives thinking about =
trimix is ludicrous. I know the agencies may list 100 dives as a =
prerequisite for trimix, but believe it that you are not ready even at =
200 dives.
=20
Let me explain. You could learn to execute a trimix dive after 50 =
dives. As a college student you most probably could learn the theories =
and the math in 20 minutes. Its probably all stuff you already know. =
What you can't learn is the stuff that only time and experience will =
teach you. When you make your screw ups (and you will, just like the =
rest of us) you want them to occur and a depth and in a circumstance you =
can survive. A mishandled incident at 75' is quite survivable. That =
same event at 300' or with a serious decompression ceiling will probably =
kill you. If you review most of the accidents, one of the common =
threads in them is people diving beyond their experience level. They =
take a course, get certified and then kill themselves doing something =
stupid like an uncontrolled ascent.
=20
Helium is no voodoo mystery gas. Diving it is essentially the =
same as air diving. What you need are good in water skills, excellent =
buoyancy control and the ability to handle task loading. What makes it =
challenging to the novice is not the gas. It is the ability to monitor =
your deco schedule, switch to the correct gas at the correct depth while =
making sure your buddy is on the correct gas, deploy a lift bag and =
possibly manage an unexpected emergency like you broke the knob off your =
deco bottle in the closed position or tangled the reel on the lift bag - =
all at the same time and without endangering yourself and others. If =
you jump right into advanced diving, you will surely "pass" the courses =
but in spite of that you won't have the experience level to fall back on =
when the sh** hits the fan. That experience is what will keep you alive =
and you won't have it.=20
=20
The skills you need to successfully execute any advanced dive =
begin with basic diving skills. Refine those skills and build up that =
experience and evolve into the advanced diving. For now, content =
yourself with recreational level diving and work on the skills specific =
to advanced diving (reels, lift bags multiple bottles etc. etc.) and =
when you are ready to take the courses you will really reap the full =
benefit of your instructors knowledge because he won't have to waste =
time teaching you things you should already know.
>>I guess the risks of narcosis which at the depths and times I =
have done I didn't experience=20
>>any is not that great at the dive I am planning. I have heard it =
is a fairly safe plan to that it is >>not a safe plan. Well that's a =
little of my background and thankyou for your reply's
Now to answer your questions.
=20
You won't "feel" the narcosis until it gets to the point of the =
ridiculous. Much like after "one beer" you are impaired but don't know =
it. =20
As far as a plan goes, you have none. (Other than to go to 140' =
which is not a plan.)
=20
Are you diving a single tank or doubles? Have you made provisions =
for air emergencies? What are your air rules? What is your run time? =
Is this a planned decompression dive? If not, do you know what to do if =
you overstay and wind up in decompression? If it is do you have =
contingency tables? Will you have enough gas to decompress? Are you =
using a computer and if so, do you have a table to back it up? What =
about your buddy? Is he at the same level as you? Will he be an asset =
or a liability in the event of a mishap?
=20
If this is one of those personal depth things my advice is to can =
it. If it is a legitimate dive with a purpose other than depth, think =
about the questions I have asked you and formulate a dive plan.
That said, should you have any questions, feel free to ask. If I =
can answer them I will. Also, take note we have had two fatalities this =
week. One a highly experienced "tech" instructor and the other a =
college student open water diver who was curious about a cave. Walk =
before you run.
Best of luck and dive safe.
Joe Citelli=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Thom Hadfield=20
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 8:23 PM
Subject: Re. Deco diving
I am planning on doing the ebber ward which I have been on 3 =
times. The max depth I reached on the ward was 128'. I have been over =
100' probably 8 times wothout getting out my log. I have dove several =
wrecks in the 40 to 100' foot range. I dive a lot in the st. Clair river =
which has low vis and current. I do most of my practice dives there. I =
am currently signed up for Nitrox. I also do not have 100 dives in yet =
which seems to be the basic first step for Trimix. I will have those in =
by the end of this year. All of my expierence is in cold greatlakes =
water. I do not plan any wreck penetration for this dive except for a =
verticle decent and ascent into the wide open cargo hole which I have =
done on a previous dive. The max depth for the ward unless you start to =
dig a hole underneath the wreck is just dhy of 140' so I am planning my =
dive for 140 but I donot plan on spending much time at that depth.=20
I am interested in trimix and I do believe it to be safer than =
air or nitrox at this depth but I have not found a store in my area who =
teaches it. Also it appears online that the training runs about $800 =
which to me as a college student is a bit high. However I know the =
response of what price can you put on a life will come up. I guess the =
risks of narcosis which at the depths and times I have done I didn't =
expierence any is not that great at the dive I am planning. I have heard =
it is a fairly safe plan to that it is not a safe plan. Well thats a =
little of my background and thankyou for your reply's
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<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:joe@po*.co*" =
title=3Djoe@po*.co*>Joe=20
Citelli</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:thom.hadfield@ho*.co*" =
title=3Dthom.hadfield@ho*.co*>Thom=20
Hadfield</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2001 =
11:08=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Re. Deco =
diving</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>>I will probably dive on 25% using =
this=20
secedule=20
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Why 25% and do you know what the MOD is?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>MOD by charts is 145 last summer it was about 135'</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> "Your table is for air. Will using 25% on that table =
violate=20
your CNS clock?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> no it will not .I am using the air for added safety. I also =
have=20
planned it for 25%. Nitrox is not available for refill near where I am =
diving=20
so incase I have to dive air I will but also I figured it would add in =
an=20
extra safety factor.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Have you dove with an 80 or 120 stage and do you know for sure =
you can=20
manage it? BTW, using a 120 for a stage is not good. 80's =
make=20
much better stage bottles."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have dove with an 80 as a stage an as I mentioned in my first =
post my=20
buddy and I wil be preparing for this dive in a quarry and I was going =
to=20
determine which would be best to use.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>"The third air tank is over complicating the whole thing. =20
Realistically, you should be able to do this whole dive on a single =
80. =20
(I am NOT suggesting you do that.)"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I dont agree it is their for a safety reason. Incase for what =
ever reason=20
soemthing happened where that was the only extra bottle that could be =
reached.=20
I am not planning on using it but it will be there if needed.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>" You will most probably spend the bulk of your time in the=20
115'-120' range. You will have either a 120 or double 80's PLUS =
a stage=20
as a safety. (If you feel you NEED the stage to do the dive you =
are not=20
ready for it. This is by no means a stage dive.)"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I figured a total of 95 cu' for the whole dive if nothing goes =
wrong. And=20
a stage tank may be the wrong term but I wanted enough spare air down =
there=20
that if myself or my buddy had a complete system failure that their =
was still=20
enough air between the 2 of us and our redundance to solve the problem =
at=20
depth not on the surface.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>" Also, if that stage is your alternate air source, it does =
you=20
know good clipped to the ascent line."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My buddy is my alternate air source that tank is emergency air. =
Thats how=20
I figured it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Have you figured redundancy into this plan? (Regs, air =
supply,=20
buoyancy.)"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2 divers with reg and octo</DIV>
<DIV>2 spare tanks with regs</DIV>
<DIV>I had no redundancy for bouyancy except for removing wieght which =
I hav=20
had to do before when I broke the fill valve on my bc at depth I =
removed some=20
weight not all as needed to get to the surface.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Will your buoyancy device support you with the added=20
weight?" </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yes</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>" Will swimming with a stage impair your air =
consumption?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It could thats what I am going to work out in the quarry</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>" What air management rules will you use?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I try to follow 1/3 out 1/3 return/ 1/3 safety</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>" How much gas do you expect to use and what pressure do =
you expect=20
to finish the dive with? "</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>95 cu' consumption</DIV>
<DIV>will depend on my configuration I assume between 500-1000 =
psig</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> What will your turn pressure be? What will your =
buddies turn=20
pressure be?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>" If you and your buddy are using dissimilar tanks, do you =
know how=20
to compare SAC rates to be sure you have enough gas to buddy breathe =
to the=20
surface?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>No this is an area that I would and could need a hand with. the =
way I=20
figured it that was the reason for the extra tanks with us so the =
situation of=20
buddy breathing to the surface would not apply. But I can see where =
keeping=20
the tank with you and not tying it to the wreck would be more =
helpful</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Do you know what you will do if you can't find the ascent =
line?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yes I am carrying a reel and a lift bag</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>" Do you know how to prevent that from happening?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yes I could use a reel to attach to the ascent line however this =
wreck=20
has ascent lines attached to both the bow and the stern ans I am =
familiar with=20
both of thier locations</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> " If the ascent line breaks away, will you realize it or =
will you=20
wander about the wreck looking for something that isn't there, waste =
gas and=20
exponentially increase your decompression obligation?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>See above</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Take the appropriate courses and have someone knowledgeable =
rubber stamp=20
what you think you know. That way, if your knowledge is =
incorrect you=20
will only feel silly and not dead. Until then, I seriously =
recommend=20
doing two 10 minute dives with a 3 hr. surface interval. Enjoy =
the wreck=20
and use your ascent time to practice ascent rates and deco stops =
for=20
future dives. That way, if you need to go to the surface, you =
can do it=20
with no problem. By your own admission, you only have 8 or so =
dives past=20
100' and to put yourself in a deco obligation at this experience level =
is=20
asking for it. </DIV>
<DIV>Remember that the trick is to evolve into it."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Your table is not what I would use but it is ok. If you =
want to=20
extend the dive, than dive the computer and keep it out of the deco=20
mode."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Actually it will probably be more like this type of dive. I =
figure by=20
computer I wont be in deco. I am treating it as a deco dive because =
worse case=20
scenario It could be.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>" Bring tables for the longer times because per tables you =
will be=20
in decompression even though you are not per the computer. If =
you=20
computer fails, your buddies computer becomes your back up and the =
tables back=20
that up should his also fail or you get separated. Personally, I =
don't=20
use computers. Learn to become proficient with tables and in =
time you=20
will develop a computer between your ears and will be able to =
improvise on the=20
fly. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I know this is not what you wanted to hear but it is the =
truth. I=20
will not encourage you to do this but I will answer =
your questions as=20
best I can."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"BTW, the actual death toll is at about 5 or 6 this week. =
The 2 I=20
previously mentioned plus 2 recreational level divers in the Fla.=20
Keys and 1 (possibly 2) "tech" divers in California trying =
to do a=20
300+ dive they thought they knew how to do. Keep this in mind =
and govern=20
yourself accordingly."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>More if you count the 2 from Japan </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Good luck and dive safe.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joe </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></FONT>----- Original Message ----- </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:thom.hadfield@ho*.co*" =
title=3Dthom.hadfield@ho*.co*>Thom=20
Hadfield</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com"=20
title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com>techdiver@aquanaut.com</A> ; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:joe@po*.co*" =
title=3Djoe@po*.co*>Joe</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 11, 2001 =
11:32=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Re. Deco =
diving</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for the advice. I do have a =
plan sorry I=20
wasn't more clear in the post. I will probably dive on 25% using =
this=20
secedule</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Waypoint at 140ft =
for 20:00=20
(22) on Air, PPO2 1.076, =
END=20
140<BR>Deep Stop at 120ft for 0:33 (23) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.952, END =
120<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 110ft for 0:33 (24) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.890, END =
110<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 100ft for 0:33 (24) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.829, END =
100<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 90ft for 0:33 (25) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.767, END =
90<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 80ft for 0:33 (26) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.705, END =
80<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 70ft for 0:33 (26) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.643, END =
70<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 60ft for 0:33 (27) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.581, END =
60<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 50ft for 0:33 (27) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.519, END =
50<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 40ft for 0:33 (28) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.457, END =
40<BR>Norm=20
Stop at 20ft for 6:00 (34) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.334, END =
20<BR>Norm=20
Stop at 10ft for 17:00 (51) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.272, END=20
10</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>TOTAL DECO TIME: 28 =
minutes.<BR>DIVE RUN TIME:=20
51 minutes.<BR>CNS Total: 9.0%<BR>OTU's: 26</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I plan on diving either a 120 =
or double=20
80's. I am leaning toward a 120 just for familarity I normally dive =
with a=20
120. My dive buddy has a lot more expierence than I do but also has =
no deco=20
expierence. I am using laminated navy tables to take with me =
and I=20
have a computer that will calculate deco to 350' I am using zplan to =
plan=20
out the dive and it is the plan I intend to dive if everything goes =
as=20
planned. However I will have tables and a computer for back up. I =
will carry=20
an ascent reel and an extra 80 or 120 (haven't decided which) stage =
bottle=20
down with me and attach it to the wreck near the ascent line. My =
buddy is=20
planning the same. I may also carry it with me these are the things =
I plan=20
on working out in a quarry. Also we are considering hanging another =
tank off=20
the bow of the boat as a third extra air tank.I want to do the dive =
not=20
because of depth but because I want more than 10 mins on this=20
wreck.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I dive safe the last time I =
dove the=20
wreck I planned for 140'. The wreck is in something like 135 feet =
but I=20
added in a little for error and safety incase something happened =
myself or=20
my buddy hit bottom. Anyways my max depth was 128' and my computer =
told me I=20
had another 9 mins left at that depth but I procedded back to the =
ascent=20
line according to my dive plan. For me or my buddy this isn't =
a=20
personal accomplishment it is wanting extra time to view the =
splendor of=20
this wreck. We didn't decide to do a deco dive to prove anything we =
decided=20
we wanted to have more time at that depth and the only way was a =
deco dive=20
and we felt ok doing it on air or 25%. We are planning no =
penetration except=20
a descent and ascent into the main wide open cargo =
hold.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe trimix is good and I had =
not even=20
considered trimx because I felt this dive plan was acceptable to do =
on air=20
or 25%. But when I posted a question for tips and suggestions I had =
a major=20
response that this was unsafe on air and I must use trimix or a =
variation=20
there of. I feel comfortable on this wreck and the depth on air. =
However I=20
didn't know what to expect extending my time into decopression=20
ranges.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry for the lengthy discussion =
but I thought=20
it might better give you an idea of my dive plan. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks Thom</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:joe@po*.co*" =
title=3Djoe@po*.co*>Joe</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:thom.hadfield@ho*.co*" =
title=3Dthom.hadfield@ho*.co*>Thom=20
Hadfield</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 06,
2001 =
8:19=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Re. Deco =
diving</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi Thom:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Do yourself a big favor and just dive. =
Forget=20
about trimix for a while and forget about depth. The way to =
become a=20
proficient and safe diver is to evolve into it. At less than =
100=20
dives thinking about trimix is ludicrous. I know the =
agencies may=20
list 100 dives as a prerequisite for trimix, but believe it that =
you are=20
not ready even at 200 dives.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Let me explain. You could learn to =
execute a=20
trimix dive after 50 dives. As a college student you =
most=20
probably could learn the theories and the math in 20 =
minutes. Its=20
probably all stuff you already know. What you can't learn is =
the=20
stuff that only time and experience will teach you. =
When you=20
make your screw ups (and you will, just like the rest of us) you =
want them=20
to occur and a depth and in a circumstance you can =
survive. A=20
mishandled incident at 75' is quite survivable. That same =
event at=20
300' or with a serious decompression ceiling will probably kill =
you. =20
If you review most of the accidents, one of the common threads in =
them is=20
people diving beyond their experience level. They take a=20
course, get certified and then kill themselves doing =
something stupid=20
like an uncontrolled ascent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Helium is no voodoo mystery gas. Diving =
it is=20
essentially the same as air diving. What you need are good =
in water=20
skills, excellent buoyancy control and the ability to handle task=20
loading. What makes it challenging to the novice is not the=20
gas. It is the ability to monitor your deco schedule, =
switch to=20
the correct gas at the correct depth while making sure your buddy =
is on=20
the correct gas, deploy a lift bag and possibly manage an =
unexpected=20
emergency like you broke the knob off your deco bottle in the =
closed=20
position or tangled the reel on the lift bag - all at the =
same time=20
and without endangering yourself and others. If you jump =
right into=20
advanced diving, you will surely "pass" the courses but in spite =
of that=20
you won't have the experience level to fall back on when the sh** =
hits the=20
fan. That experience is what will keep you alive and you =
won't have=20
it. </FONT><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The skills you need to successfully =
execute any=20
advanced dive begin with basic diving =
skills. Refine those=20
skills and build up that experience and evolve into the advanced=20
diving. For now, content yourself with recreational level =
diving and=20
work on the skills specific to advanced diving (reels, lift bags =
multiple=20
bottles etc. etc.) and when you are ready to take the courses you =
will=20
really reap the full benefit of your instructors =
knowledge because he=20
won't have to waste time teaching you things you should =
already=20
know.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>>>I guess the risks of narcosis which at =
the=20
depths and times I have done I didn't experience </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>>>any is not that great at the dive I am =
planning.=20
I have heard it is a fairly safe plan to that it is >>not a =
safe=20
plan. Well that's a little of my background and thankyou for your=20
reply's</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now to answer your questions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You won't "feel" the narcosis until it gets to =
the point=20
of the ridiculous. Much like after "one beer" </FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>you are impaired but don't know it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>As far as a plan goes, you have none. (Other =
than to go=20
to 140' which is not a plan.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Are you diving a single tank =
or doubles? Have=20
you made provisions for air emergencies? What are your air=20
rules? What is your run time? Is this a planned =
decompression=20
dive? If not, do you know what to do if you overstay and =
wind up in=20
decompression? If it is do you have contingency =
tables? Will=20
you have enough gas to decompress? Are you using a computer =
and if=20
so, do you have a table to back it up? What about your =
buddy? =20
Is he at the same level as you? Will he be an asset or a =
liability=20
in the event of a mishap?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If this is one of those personal depth things =
my advice=20
is to can it. If it is a legitimate dive with a purpose =
other than=20
depth, think about the questions I have asked you and =
formulate a=20
dive plan.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>That said, should you have any questions, =
feel free=20
to ask. If I can answer them I will. Also, take=20
note we have had two fatalities this week. One a highly =
experienced "tech" instructor and the other a college student open =
water=20
diver who was curious about a cave. Walk before you=20
run.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Best of luck and dive safe.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Joe Citelli</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:thom.hadfield@ho*.co*"=20
title=3Dthom.hadfield@ho*.co*>Thom Hadfield</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com"=20
title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com>techdiver@aquanaut.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 10,
=
2001 8:23=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re. Deco =
diving</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am planning on doing the =
ebber ward which=20
I have been on 3 times. The max depth I reached on the ward was =
128'. I=20
have been over 100' probably 8 times wothout getting out my log. =
I have=20
dove several wrecks in the 40 to 100' foot range. I dive a lot =
in the=20
st. Clair river which has low vis and current. I do most of my =
practice=20
dives there. I am currently signed up for Nitrox. I also do not =
have 100=20
dives in yet which seems to be the basic first step for Trimix. =
I will=20
have those in by the end of this year. All of my expierence is =
in cold=20
greatlakes water. I do not plan any wreck penetration for this =
dive=20
except for a verticle decent and ascent into the wide open cargo =
hole=20
which I have done on a previous dive. The max depth for the ward =
unless=20
you start to dig a hole underneath the wreck is just dhy of 140' =
so I am=20
planning my dive for 140 but I donot plan on spending much time =
at that=20
depth. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am interested in trimix and I =
do believe=20
it to be safer than air or nitrox at this depth but I have not =
found a=20
store in my area who teaches it. Also it appears online that the =
training runs about $800 which to me as a college student is a =
bit high.=20
However I know the response of what price can you put on a life =
will=20
come up. I guess the risks of narcosis which at the depths and =
times I=20
have done I didn't expierence any is not that great at the dive =
I am=20
planning. I have heard it is a fairly safe plan to that it is =
not a safe=20
plan. Well thats a little of my background and thankyou for your =
=
reply's</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></B
LOCKQUOTE><=
/BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C0DAD6.A7520240--
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