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Thanks for the advice. I do have a plan sorry I wasn't more clear in the =
post. I will probably dive on 25% using this secedule
Waypoint at 140ft for 20:00 (22) on Air, PPO2 1.076, END 140
Deep Stop at 120ft for 0:33 (23) on Air, PPO2 0.952, END 120
Deep Stop at 110ft for 0:33 (24) on Air, PPO2 0.890, END 110
Deep Stop at 100ft for 0:33 (24) on Air, PPO2 0.829, END 100
Deep Stop at 90ft for 0:33 (25) on Air, PPO2 0.767, END 90
Deep Stop at 80ft for 0:33 (26) on Air, PPO2 0.705, END 80
Deep Stop at 70ft for 0:33 (26) on Air, PPO2 0.643, END 70
Deep Stop at 60ft for 0:33 (27) on Air, PPO2 0.581, END 60
Deep Stop at 50ft for 0:33 (27) on Air, PPO2 0.519, END 50
Deep Stop at 40ft for 0:33 (28) on Air, PPO2 0.457, END 40
Norm Stop at 20ft for 6:00 (34) on Air, PPO2 0.334, END 20
Norm Stop at 10ft for 17:00 (51) on Air, PPO2 0.272, END 10
TOTAL DECO TIME: 28 minutes.
DIVE RUN TIME: 51 minutes.
CNS Total: 9.0%
OTU's: 26
I plan on diving either a 120 or double 80's. I am leaning toward a 120 =
just for familarity I normally dive with a 120. My dive buddy has a lot =
more expierence than I do but also has no deco expierence. I am using =
laminated navy tables to take with me and I have a computer that will =
calculate deco to 350' I am using zplan to plan out the dive and it is =
the plan I intend to dive if everything goes as planned. However I will =
have tables and a computer for back up. I will carry an ascent reel and =
an extra 80 or 120 (haven't decided which) stage bottle down with me and =
attach it to the wreck near the ascent line. My buddy is planning the =
same. I may also carry it with me these are the things I plan on working =
out in a quarry. Also we are considering hanging another tank off the =
bow of the boat as a third extra air tank.I want to do the dive not =
because of depth but because I want more than 10 mins on this wreck.
I dive safe the last time I dove the wreck I planned for 140'. The =
wreck is in something like 135 feet but I added in a little for error =
and safety incase something happened myself or my buddy hit bottom. =
Anyways my max depth was 128' and my computer told me I had another 9 =
mins left at that depth but I procedded back to the ascent line =
according to my dive plan. For me or my buddy this isn't a personal =
accomplishment it is wanting extra time to view the splendor of this =
wreck. We didn't decide to do a deco dive to prove anything we decided =
we wanted to have more time at that depth and the only way was a deco =
dive and we felt ok doing it on air or 25%. We are planning no =
penetration except a descent and ascent into the main wide open cargo =
hold.
I believe trimix is good and I had not even considered trimx because I =
felt this dive plan was acceptable to do on air or 25%. But when I =
posted a question for tips and suggestions I had a major response that =
this was unsafe on air and I must use trimix or a variation there of. I =
feel comfortable on this wreck and the depth on air. However I didn't =
know what to expect extending my time into decopression ranges.
Sorry for the lengthy discussion but I thought it might better give you =
an idea of my dive plan.=20
Thanks Thom
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Joe=20
To: Thom Hadfield=20
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: Re. Deco diving
Hi Thom:
Do yourself a big favor and just dive. Forget about trimix for a =
while and forget about depth. The way to become a proficient and safe =
diver is to evolve into it. At less than 100 dives thinking about =
trimix is ludicrous. I know the agencies may list 100 dives as a =
prerequisite for trimix, but believe it that you are not ready even at =
200 dives.
=20
Let me explain. You could learn to execute a trimix dive after 50 =
dives. As a college student you most probably could learn the theories =
and the math in 20 minutes. Its probably all stuff you already know. =
What you can't learn is the stuff that only time and experience will =
teach you. When you make your screw ups (and you will, just like the =
rest of us) you want them to occur and a depth and in a circumstance you =
can survive. A mishandled incident at 75' is quite survivable. That =
same event at 300' or with a serious decompression ceiling will probably =
kill you. If you review most of the accidents, one of the common =
threads in them is people diving beyond their experience level. They =
take a course, get certified and then kill themselves doing something =
stupid like an uncontrolled ascent.
=20
Helium is no voodoo mystery gas. Diving it is essentially the same as =
air diving. What you need are good in water skills, excellent buoyancy =
control and the ability to handle task loading. What makes it =
challenging to the novice is not the gas. It is the ability to monitor =
your deco schedule, switch to the correct gas at the correct depth while =
making sure your buddy is on the correct gas, deploy a lift bag and =
possibly manage an unexpected emergency like you broke the knob off your =
deco bottle in the closed position or tangled the reel on the lift bag - =
all at the same time and without endangering yourself and others. If =
you jump right into advanced diving, you will surely "pass" the courses =
but in spite of that you won't have the experience level to fall back on =
when the sh** hits the fan. That experience is what will keep you alive =
and you won't have it.=20
=20
The skills you need to successfully execute any advanced dive begin =
with basic diving skills. Refine those skills and build up that =
experience and evolve into the advanced diving. For now, content =
yourself with recreational level diving and work on the skills specific =
to advanced diving (reels, lift bags multiple bottles etc. etc.) and =
when you are ready to take the courses you will really reap the full =
benefit of your instructors knowledge because he won't have to waste =
time teaching you things you should already know.
>>I guess the risks of narcosis which at the depths and times I have =
done I didn't experience=20
>>any is not that great at the dive I am planning. I have heard it is =
a fairly safe plan to that it is >>not a safe plan. Well that's a little =
of my background and thankyou for your reply's
Now to answer your questions.
=20
You won't "feel" the narcosis until it gets to the point of the =
ridiculous. Much like after "one beer" you are impaired but don't know =
it. =20
As far as a plan goes, you have none. (Other than to go to 140' which =
is not a plan.)
=20
Are you diving a single tank or doubles? Have you made provisions for =
air emergencies? What are your air rules? What is your run time? Is =
this a planned decompression dive? If not, do you know what to do if =
you overstay and wind up in decompression? If it is do you have =
contingency tables? Will you have enough gas to decompress? Are you =
using a computer and if so, do you have a table to back it up? What =
about your buddy? Is he at the same level as you? Will he be an asset =
or a liability in the event of a mishap?
=20
If this is one of those personal depth things my advice is to can it. =
If it is a legitimate dive with a purpose other than depth, think about =
the questions I have asked you and formulate a dive plan.
That said, should you have any questions, feel free to ask. If I can =
answer them I will. Also, take note we have had two fatalities this =
week. One a highly experienced "tech" instructor and the other a =
college student open water diver who was curious about a cave. Walk =
before you run.
Best of luck and dive safe.
Joe Citelli=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Thom Hadfield=20
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 8:23 PM
Subject: Re. Deco diving
I am planning on doing the ebber ward which I have been on 3 times. =
The max depth I reached on the ward was 128'. I have been over 100' =
probably 8 times wothout getting out my log. I have dove several wrecks =
in the 40 to 100' foot range. I dive a lot in the st. Clair river which =
has low vis and current. I do most of my practice dives there. I am =
currently signed up for Nitrox. I also do not have 100 dives in yet =
which seems to be the basic first step for Trimix. I will have those in =
by the end of this year. All of my expierence is in cold greatlakes =
water. I do not plan any wreck penetration for this dive except for a =
verticle decent and ascent into the wide open cargo hole which I have =
done on a previous dive. The max depth for the ward unless you start to =
dig a hole underneath the wreck is just dhy of 140' so I am planning my =
dive for 140 but I donot plan on spending much time at that depth.=20
I am interested in trimix and I do believe it to be safer than air =
or nitrox at this depth but I have not found a store in my area who =
teaches it. Also it appears online that the training runs about $800 =
which to me as a college student is a bit high. However I know the =
response of what price can you put on a life will come up. I guess the =
risks of narcosis which at the depths and times I have done I didn't =
expierence any is not that great at the dive I am planning. I have heard =
it is a fairly safe plan to that it is not a safe plan. Well thats a =
little of my background and thankyou for your reply's
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for the advice. I do have a plan =
sorry I=20
wasn't more clear in the post. I will probably dive on 25% using this=20
secedule</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Waypoint at 140ft for =
20:00 (22)=20
on Air, PPO2 1.076, END =
140<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 120ft for 0:33 (23) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.952, END =
120<BR>Deep Stop=20
at 110ft for 0:33 (24) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.890, END =
110<BR>Deep Stop=20
at 100ft for 0:33 (24) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.829, END =
100<BR>Deep Stop=20
at 90ft for 0:33 (25) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.767, END =
90<BR>Deep Stop=20
at 80ft for 0:33 (26) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.705, END =
80<BR>Deep Stop=20
at 70ft for 0:33 (26) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.643, END =
70<BR>Deep Stop=20
at 60ft for 0:33 (27) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.581, END =
60<BR>Deep Stop=20
at 50ft for 0:33 (27) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.519, END =
50<BR>Deep Stop=20
at 40ft for 0:33 (28) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.457, END =
40<BR>Norm Stop=20
at 20ft for 6:00 (34) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.334, END =
20<BR>Norm Stop=20
at 10ft for 17:00 (51) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.272, END =
10</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>TOTAL DECO TIME: 28 minutes.<BR>DIVE =
RUN TIME: 51=20
minutes.<BR>CNS Total: 9.0%<BR>OTU's: 26</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I plan on diving either a 120 or =
double 80's.=20
I am leaning toward a 120 just for familarity I normally dive with a =
120. My=20
dive buddy has a lot more expierence than I do but also has no deco =
expierence.=20
I am using laminated navy tables to take with me and I have a =
computer=20
that will calculate deco to 350' I am using zplan to plan out the dive =
and it is=20
the plan I intend to dive if everything goes as planned. However I will =
have=20
tables and a computer for back up. I will carry an ascent reel and an =
extra 80=20
or 120 (haven't decided which) stage bottle down with me and attach it =
to the=20
wreck near the ascent line. My buddy is planning the same. I may also =
carry it=20
with me these are the things I plan on working out in a quarry. Also we =
are=20
considering hanging another tank off the bow of the boat as a third =
extra air=20
tank.I want to do the dive not because of depth but because I want more =
than 10=20
mins on this wreck.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I dive safe the last time I dove =
the wreck I=20
planned for 140'. The wreck is in something like 135 feet but I added in =
a=20
little for error and safety incase something happened myself or my buddy =
hit=20
bottom. Anyways my max depth was 128' and my computer told me I had =
another 9=20
mins left at that depth but I procedded back to the ascent line =
according to=20
my dive plan. For me or my buddy this isn't a personal =
accomplishment it=20
is wanting extra time to view the splendor of this wreck. We didn't =
decide to do=20
a deco dive to prove anything we decided we wanted to have more time at =
that=20
depth and the only way was a deco dive and we felt ok doing it on air or =
25%. We=20
are planning no penetration except a descent and ascent into the main =
wide open=20
cargo hold.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe trimix is good and I had not =
even=20
considered trimx because I felt this dive plan was acceptable to do on =
air or=20
25%. But when I posted a question for tips and suggestions I had a major =
response that this was unsafe on air and I must use trimix or a =
variation there=20
of. I feel comfortable on this wreck and the depth on air. However I =
didn't know=20
what to expect extending my time into decopression ranges.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry for the lengthy discussion but I =
thought it=20
might better give you an idea of my dive plan. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks Thom</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:joe@po*.co*" =
title=3Djoe@po*.co*>Joe</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:thom.hadfield@ho*.co*" =
title=3Dthom.hadfield@ho*.co*>Thom=20
Hadfield</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 06, 2001
8:19 =
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Re. Deco =
diving</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi Thom:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Do yourself a big favor and just dive. =
Forget about=20
trimix for a while and forget about depth. The way to become a=20
proficient and safe diver is to evolve into it. At less than 100 =
dives=20
thinking about trimix is ludicrous. I know the agencies may list =
100=20
dives as a prerequisite for trimix, but believe it that you are not =
ready even=20
at 200 dives.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Let me explain. You could learn to execute a =
trimix=20
dive after 50 dives. As a college student you most probably =
could=20
learn the theories and the math in 20 minutes. Its probably all =
stuff=20
you already know. What you can't learn is the stuff that only =
time and=20
experience will teach you. When you make your screw ups =
(and you=20
will, just like the rest of us) you want them to occur and a =
depth and in=20
a circumstance you can survive. A mishandled incident at 75' is =
quite=20
survivable. That same event at 300' or with a serious =
decompression=20
ceiling will probably kill you. If you review most of the =
accidents, one=20
of the common threads in them is people diving beyond their experience =
level. They take a course, get certified and then kill =
themselves=20
doing something stupid like an uncontrolled ascent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Helium is no voodoo mystery gas. Diving it =
is=20
essentially the same as air diving. What you need are good in =
water=20
skills, excellent buoyancy control and the ability to handle task=20
loading. What makes it challenging to the novice is not the =
gas. =20
It is the ability to monitor your deco schedule, switch to the =
correct=20
gas at the correct depth while making sure your buddy is on the =
correct gas,=20
deploy a lift bag and possibly manage an unexpected emergency like you =
broke=20
the knob off your deco bottle in the closed position or tangled the =
reel on=20
the lift bag - all at the same time and without endangering =
yourself and=20
others. If you jump right into advanced diving, you will surely =
"pass"=20
the courses but in spite of that you won't have the experience level =
to fall=20
back on when the sh** hits the fan. That experience is what will =
keep=20
you alive and you won't have it. </FONT><FONT
size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The skills you need to successfully execute =
any=20
advanced dive begin with basic diving skills. Refine =
those=20
skills and build up that experience and evolve into the advanced =
diving. =20
For now, content yourself with recreational level diving and work on =
the=20
skills specific to advanced diving (reels, lift bags multiple bottles =
etc.=20
etc.) and when you are ready to take the courses you will really reap =
the full=20
benefit of your instructors knowledge because he won't have to =
waste time=20
teaching you things you should already know.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>>>I guess the risks of narcosis which at the =
depths=20
and times I have done I didn't experience </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>>>any is not that great at the dive I am =
planning. I=20
have heard it is a fairly safe plan to that it is >>not a safe =
plan.=20
Well that's a little of my background and thankyou for your=20
reply's</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now to answer your questions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You won't "feel" the narcosis until it gets to the =
point of=20
the ridiculous. Much like after "one beer" </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>you are=20
impaired but don't know it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>As far as a plan goes, you have none. (Other than =
to go to=20
140' which is not a plan.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Are you diving a single tank =
or doubles? Have you=20
made provisions for air emergencies? What are your air =
rules? What=20
is your run time? Is this a planned decompression dive? If =
not, do=20
you know what to do if you overstay and wind up in =
decompression? If it=20
is do you have contingency tables? Will you have enough gas to=20
decompress? Are you using a computer and if so, do you have a =
table to=20
back it up? What about your buddy? Is he at the same level =
as=20
you? Will he be an asset or a liability in the event of a=20
mishap?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If this is one of those personal depth things my =
advice is=20
to can it. If it is a legitimate dive with a purpose other than =
depth,=20
think about the questions I have asked you and formulate a dive=20
plan.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>That said, should you have any questions, =
feel free to=20
ask. If I can answer them I will. Also, take =
note we=20
have had two fatalities this week. One a highly experienced =
"tech"=20
instructor and the other a college student open water diver who was =
curious=20
about a cave. Walk before you run.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Best of luck and dive safe.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Joe Citelli</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:thom.hadfield@ho*.co*" =
title=3Dthom.hadfield@ho*.co*>Thom=20
Hadfield</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com"=20
title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com>techdiver@aquanaut.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 10,
2001 =
8:23=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re. Deco =
diving</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am planning on doing the ebber =
ward which I=20
have been on 3 times. The max depth I reached on the ward was 128'. =
I have=20
been over 100' probably 8 times wothout getting out my log. I have =
dove=20
several wrecks in the 40 to 100' foot range. I dive a lot in the st. =
Clair=20
river which has low vis and current. I do most of my practice dives =
there. I=20
am currently signed up for Nitrox. I also do not have 100 dives in =
yet which=20
seems to be the basic first step for Trimix. I will have those in by =
the end=20
of this year. All of my expierence is in cold greatlakes water. I do =
not=20
plan any wreck penetration for this dive except for a verticle =
decent and=20
ascent into the wide open cargo hole which I have done on a previous =
dive.=20
The max depth for the ward unless you start to dig a hole underneath =
the=20
wreck is just dhy of 140' so I am planning my dive for 140 but I =
donot plan=20
on spending much time at that depth. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am interested in trimix and I do =
believe it=20
to be safer than air or nitrox at this depth but I have not found a =
store in=20
my area who teaches it. Also it appears online that the training =
runs about=20
$800 which to me as a college student is a bit high. However I know =
the=20
response of what price can you put on a life will come up. I guess =
the risks=20
of narcosis which at the depths and times I have done I didn't =
expierence=20
any is not that great at the dive I am planning. I have heard it is =
a fairly=20
safe plan to that it is not a safe plan. Well thats a little of my=20
background and thankyou for your=20
reply's</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0DA6A.4CC76B60--
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