Weight on land and price are TOTALLY irrelevant.

At 08:41 PM 2/21/2001 -0500, Marv wrote:
>ok
>first, if you read Pauls post you should have been able to infer that he 
>was discussing the weight of the tanks on dry land.
>If you ever tried to lift a set of 104s and then right away move a set of 
>80's, like i do when im filling in my garage, you would see the difference 
>between the two, and it should have been one fifth the cost and one third 
>the wt, as you can see from you chart  the al is 2/3 the wt of steel, and 
>used 80s go around 50 bucks a piece here, while steel anything is in the 
>280 range at least.
>
>btw ive seen half a dozen internet tank charts, all different ##'s. to 
>each his own i guess..............
>
>marv
>
>
>William Hulik wrote:
>
>> >From what I read the AL80 are for the ocean when
>>diving WET.  Appropriate sized/weight steel is
>>acceptable when Dry.
>>How is AL 1/5 the weight of steel?????
>>Direct from NitroxDiver.com
>>http://www.nitroxdiver.com/Library/tanks.html
>>Tank       Weight      Buoyancy Empty
>>OMS 85     31.0        0.0
>>OMS 98     38.0        0.0
>>FAB 95     37.6        -1.2
>>AL  80     31.6        +4.1
>>PST 104    46.0        -2.5
>>Is it me or is your math off just a little here.  An
>>AL80 IS about 1/3 lighter than a PST 104 but is
>>similar enough to other steels that is would not be a
>>deciding factor unless diving wet (because of its
>>inherent buoyancy).
>>In my opinion - a diver wearing double LP 104's for
>>ocean boat diving might as well be an anchor.  Never
>>mind trying to climb the ladder in a rough sea.
>>Bill
>>
>>--- Kevin Connell <kevin@co*.ne*> wrote:
>>
>>>Marv, is it DIR because you read something george
>>>wrote (out of context)  and you happen to use the same equipment?
>>>Can you come out here and retrain everyone, maybe
>>>offer some lectures on DIR?   We seem to be stroking out big time with
>>>steel tanks.
>>>armchair  diving at its finest.
>>>At 11:37 PM 2/20/2001 -0500, Marv wrote:
>>>
>>>>THis is not just a Paul thing but since he brougth
>>>it up, its the ideal
>>>>place for it.
>>>>If you are diving in the ocean , what is the ideal
>>>tank?
>>>
>>>>not what tank can you make work or what tank is
>>>kind of ok, but what tank
>>>>is DIR??
>>>>its the   ALUMINUM 80
>>>>These tanks are one third the cost of steel
>>>whatevers and one fifth the
>>>>weight.
>>>>They are the ultimate tank in terms of buoyancy,
>>>when manifolded&doubled
>>>>up with a steel plate for drysuit diving you will
>>>not realize you are
>>>>wearing tanks, they have more than enuff gas for
>>>most reasonable dives,
>>>>and they are by definition the dir tank of choice
>>>for the ocean. They are
>>>>easy to dive with a tls 350, c4 14 size light and a
>>>weight belt or if you
>>>>must a v weight.
>>>>check out Georges article on wkpp.org if you doubt
>>>what i am telling you.
>>>>Its right there in black and white.or read below.
>>>>Marv
>>>> From "Equipment Configuration", G. Irvine,
>>>wkpp.org
>>>
>>>>"  For ocean, aluminum 80's are the tank of choice.
>>>If more gas is needed,
>>>
>>>>take an aluminum stage, but don't risk your life
>>>being over weighted at
>>>
>>>>the beginning of the dive. The buoyancy
>>>characteristics of aluminum,
>>>
>>>>especially when using helium , are such that a
>>>weight belt and or
>>>
>>>>canister light will provide the necessary ballast
>>>which can be dropped
>>>
>>>>in an emergency, making the rig only reasonably
>>>negative when full,
>>>
>>>>neutral when empty, but swimable by dropping the
>>>weight. "
>>>
>>>>                  ----George Irvine
>>>>
>>>>Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I already replaced a bunch of stuff, this is not
>>>the beginning of
>>>>>switching to a DIR setup.  The DIR tanks cost $900
>>>and weigh a ton. I
>>>>>can't stomach it in my pocketbook or knees right
>>>now.  Someone else said
>>>>>my tanks will work for now.
>>>>>Kevin Connell wrote:
>>>>>~
>>>>>
>>>>>>So what's the problem paul, you only need to
>>>replace your tanks and your
>>>>>>fins.  you did way better than I did, I had to
>>>replace everything.
>>>
>>>>>>Dry gloves are OK as long as the wrist seal is
>>>intact.
>>>
>>>>>>Drysuit is fine.  it's compressed.  Actually a
>>>nice suit if you ask me.
>>>
>>>>>>You won't need the weights with proper tanks.
>>>>>>At 11:23 AM 2/20/2001 -0800, Paul Braunbehrens
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>Chris, I've had the twin jets since before I was
>>>exposed to DIR.  I
>>>>>>>also have a neoprene drysuit, a set of HP
>>>doubles, and an atomic
>>>>>>>regulator.  Sorry, I just don't have $2k sitting
>>>around right now to
>>>>>>>change all my gear.  I'm trying to figure out
>>>what I can use in the
>>>>>>>tech 1 class, and what I need to change.  In the
>>>real world you need to
>>>>>>>make some compromises.  It's either do the class
>>>with most of the gear
>>>>>>>I have now, or wait until I have the money to
>>>switch all my gear
>>>>>>>around, and that could be a while.  So I"m
>>>trying to figure out what
>>>>>>>will "work", and what I absolutely have to
>>>replace now.  I just priced
>>>>>>>the jet fins, they are a minor expense, I'll be
>>>getting them shortly.
>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks for your offer to let me borrow your
>>>stuff, BTW, but I've long
>>>>>>>since learned that you need to train using your
>>>own gear, if the
>>>>>>>training is to be worth anything.
>>>>>>>Just for kicks, here is a list of what I'm
>>>using, as you can see I've
>>>>>>>already blown a lot of money...
>>>>>>>PST HP 100 doubles with isolator manifold
>>>>>>>G250/M20 on a necklace, and Atomic on a 7 ft
>>>hose.
>>>
>>>>>>>brass spg.
>>>>>>>10 W HID
>>>>>>>Halcyon integrated weights
>>>>>>>OMS SS backplate
>>>>>>>Harness (webbing from EE, the other stuff I had
>>>laying around)
>>>
>>>>>>>2 EE backup lights
>>>>>>>Diving Concepts compressed neoprene drysuit
>>>>>>>Halcyon 65 lb wing (I have some bondage wings
>>>sitting in my garage in
>>>>>>>case anyone wants them)
>>>>>>>Twin jet fins with spring straps (soon to be Jet
>>>fins)
>>>
>>>>>>>Halcyon lift bag
>>>>>>>Halcyon Sausage
>>>>>>>Dry gloves with ring system (this was a poor
>>>choice, but I'm stuck with
>>>>>>>it for now).
>>>>>>>So here is the question really.  I just don't
>>>have the bucks to change
>>>>>>>the drysuit and the tanks right now, and I'm
>>>sure those two are the
>>>>>>>worst offenders.  Should I postpone the class
>>>until I've changed those,
>>>>>>>or should I take the class now?
>>>>>>>Please advise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Chris Elmore wrote:
>>>>>>>~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>>>>      George was right, "What are we going to
>>>do with you?" I've been
>>>>>>>>diving
>>>>>>>>since '68 and a pressure gauge is the only
>>>thing that made it past the DIR
>>>
>>>>>>>>purge. To clarify: DIR stands for Doing It
>>>Right. It doesn't mean Doing It
>>>
>>>>>>>>Half-assed Until Later. You keep asking
>>>questions, getting good
>>>>>>>>answers then
>>>>>>>>buying crap anyway. Sign up for a GUE course
>>>and I'll let you borrow
>>>>>>>>all my
>>>>>>>>stuff for the week. Geez, put the coffee on.
>>>>>>>>C.
>>>>>>>>Chris Elmore
>>>>>>>>PalmettoSoft Technologies Corp.
>>>>>>>>(803) 233-2001 (work)
>>>>>>>>(803) 348-3055 (mobile)
>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
>>>>>>>>To: <thomas@ha*.ne*>; Steve Schultz 
>>>>>>>><se2schul@bl*.ma*.uw*.ca*>;
>>>>>>>>Stefan Bolka <sbolka@er*.co*>
>>>>>>>>Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; GUE Mailing List
>>><quest@gu*.co*>
>>>
>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:59 AM
>>>>>>>>Subject: RE: Fins question
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Because I've been diving for a couple of
>>>decades, and happen to have
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  some equipment that I purchased before I was
>>>exposed to DIR.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  DUH!
>>>>>>>>>  Thomas Tukker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>  ~
>>>>>>>>>  >Hmmm, never seen any of those in Wakulla...
>>>>>>>>>  >Guess you're in for another purchase.
>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >Why not buy what you see all DIR divers
>>>wear in the first place, that
>>>
>>>>>>>>might
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >be a money saving strategy if you have a
>>>limited budget to work with
>>>
>>>>>>>>Paul.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >TT
>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>  -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>  >>  From: Paul Braunbehrens
>>>[mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*]
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 2:07 AM
>>>>>>>>>  >>  To: Steve Schultz; Stefan Bolka
>>>>>>>>>  >>  Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com; GUE Mailing
>>>List
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  Subject: Re: Fins question
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  Steve, that's not my experience.  I was
>>>also wondering if the twin
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  jets are DIR, 'cause when I got a dry
>>>suit and had to get
>>>>>>>>>larger fins
>>>>>>>>>  >>  I did get the twin jets.  As far as how
>>>well they work, they work
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  very well.  No cramps, and you will move
>>>faster.  They don't "feel"
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  like you're doing much work, i.e. there
>>>isn't much resistance
>>>>>>>>>to work
>>>>>>>>>  >>  against, but if you compare against
>>>known variables you'll see that
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  your speed under water has improved.
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  I sure hope they're ok, 'cause I'm
>>>already going to blow a lot of
>>>
>>>>>>>>  > >>  money on other stuff including the
>>>tech1 class, and don't want to
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  have to buy fins as well.
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  Cheers.
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  Steve Schultz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>  >>  ~
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >Stefan,
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >Data can be manipulated statistically
>>>to serve whoever is
>>>>>>>>>publishing
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >info.
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >When you read info about fin
>>>efficiency, see who is publishing the
>>>
>>>>>>>>data,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >and ask yourself if they have something
>>>to gain.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >More importantly, try it yourself in
>>>the water.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >I tried the bio-fin a couple years ago
>>>when appollo sponsored an
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >expedition.  I found the fins sucked.
>>>I mean really
>>>>>>>>>sucked.  I dive
>>>>>>>>Jets
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >and only Jets now. Give me 10 pairs of
>>>bio-fins for free, and I'll
>>>
>>>>>>>>still
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >be diving my Jets.
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >Whoever said bio-fins are more
>>>efficient probably didn't have calf
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >muscles, or they sell them.
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >BTW, the best DIR equipment list so far
>>>is on the WKPP website.
>>>
>>>>>>>>George
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >posted his configuration.
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >ss
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Stefan Bolka
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Ok this is probably gonna get me
>>>hurt but...
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Has anyone thought about the natures
>>>wing, i.e. scubapro
>>>>>>>>>twin jet
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>fins or Apollo bio fin for DIR.  I ask
>>>because I recognize that
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>many of us (like me) do not have
>>>scooters and the test numbers
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>showing better efficiency sound
>>>encouraging.  Do these work for
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>frog kicks?  Could they be used for
>>>tech. and not cave or cavern?
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  I am asking because I am trying to
>>>start making a "DIR approved
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>equipment list".  yes I have too much
>>>time on my hands and
>>>>>>>>>figured
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>it makes sense to try and help new
>>>divers get into DIR
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>methodologies so I am working on a
>>>FAQ.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  If anyone has start a FAQ and not
>>>finished let me know, I'll
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  help finish it.
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Thanks for the help,
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Stefan.
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  >For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>quest-help@gu*.co*
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  --
>>>>>>>>>  >>  Paul B.
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>  For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>quest-help@gu*.co*
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>>  Paul B.
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>>>>>>>>  To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>>>
>>>>>>>>>  For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>quest-help@gu*.co*
>>>
>>>>>>>-- Paul B.
>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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>>>
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>>>--
>>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
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