Geroge,

I am more or less the instigator of this mess , and I would like to just 
bring a couple of things more into focus.

If you had limited funds< like Paul does> which tank would you buy, the 
al80s or the 104s, if you were only diving ocean?

Why exactly is the 80 the "tank of choice" for the ocean? Is there some 
reason besides buoyancy and  cost?

What is more important on a deco dive inthe ocean, ability to ultimately 
surface by ditching weight to become positive or  remaining beneath the 
deco ceiling by other means< buddy support divers bring gas, etc>

I am thinking that your primary concern in the ocean  is drowning, 
followed by inert gas concerns. Which is more or less important to the 
dir diver in the ocean?

Did i misquote you or miss some context in your original article<where i 
quoted from your gear config piece re al 80s in the ocean, which is in 
the morass below.> ?

Thanks,

Marv

George Irvine wrote:

> Think of it this way , Allyson: whatever you are wearing, you should be able
> to stay at ten feet with almost no gas, and you should be able to swim up
> from depth with no inflation of any kind ( by dropping something ). If you
> can do that, you are DIR. If not, you are a moron ( not you, Allyson ).
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Allyson" <allysonclagett@ea*.ne*>
> To: "'Kevin Connell'" <kevin@co*.ne*>; "'Marv'" <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>;
> "'Paul Braunbehrens'" <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
> Cc: "'Chris Elmore'" <elmorec@at*.ne*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 1:00 PM
> Subject: RE: DIHUL, was: Fins question
> 
> 
>> Hi Marv,
>> 
>> You're right, George Irvine's "Doing It Right Gear Configuration" article
>> says that for ocean diving "aluminum 80's are the tank of choice."
> 
> However
> 
>> the article also says "in ocean or lake diving, steel tanks should never
> 
> be
> 
>> used without a drysuit."
>> 
>> So what I surmise from the article is, if you are diving in the ocean in a
>> wetsuit, definitely use aluminum 80's--with a wetsuit, never use steel
>> tanks.  If you are diving a drysuit in the ocean, using steel tanks is
>> acceptable (as you will need less weight elsewhere on your person.)
>> 
>> ~Allyson
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kevin Connell [mailto:kevin@co*.ne*]
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 12:08 AM
>> To: Marv; Paul Braunbehrens
>> Cc: Chris Elmore; techdiver@aquanaut.com; GUE Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: DIHUL, was: Fins question
>> 
>> 
>> Marv, is it DIR because you read something george wrote (out of
>> context)  and you happen to use the same equipment?
>> 
>> Can you come out here and retrain everyone, maybe offer some lectures on
>> DIR?   We seem to be stroking out big time with steel tanks.
>> 
>> armchair  diving at its finest.
>> 
>> At 11:37 PM 2/20/2001 -0500, Marv wrote:
>> 
>>> THis is not just a Paul thing but since he brougth it up, its the ideal
>>> place for it.
>>> 
>>> If you are diving in the ocean , what is the ideal tank?
>>> 
>>> not what tank can you make work or what tank is kind of ok, but what tank
>>> is DIR??
>>> 
>>> its the   ALUMINUM 80
>>> 
>>> These tanks are one third the cost of steel whatevers and one fifth the
>>> weight.
>>> 
>>> They are the ultimate tank in terms of buoyancy, when manifolded&doubled
>>> up with a steel plate for drysuit diving you will not realize you are
>>> wearing tanks, they have more than enuff gas for most reasonable dives,
>>> and they are by definition the dir tank of choice for the ocean. They are
>>> easy to dive with a tls 350, c4 14 size light and a weight belt or if you
>>> must a v weight.
>>> 
>>> check out Georges article on wkpp.org if you doubt what i am telling you.
>>> Its right there in black and white.or read below.
>>> 
>>> Marv
>>> 
>>> From "Equipment Configuration", G. Irvine, wkpp.org
>>> 
>>> "  For ocean, aluminum 80's are the tank of choice. If more gas is
>> 
> needed,
> 
>>> take an aluminum stage, but don't risk your life being over weighted at
>>> the beginning of the dive. The buoyancy characteristics of aluminum,
>>> especially when using helium , are such that a weight belt and or
>>> canister light will provide the necessary ballast which can be dropped
>>> in an emergency, making the rig only reasonably negative when full,
>>> neutral when empty, but swimable by dropping the weight. "
>>>                  ----George Irvine
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I already replaced a bunch of stuff, this is not the beginning of
>>>> switching to a DIR setup.  The DIR tanks cost $900 and weigh a ton. I
>>>> can't stomach it in my pocketbook or knees right now.  Someone else said
>>>> my tanks will work for now.
>>>> Kevin Connell wrote:
>>>> ~
>>>> 
>>>>> So what's the problem paul, you only need to replace your tanks and
>>>> 
> your
> 
>>>>> fins.  you did way better than I did, I had to replace everything.
>>>>> Dry gloves are OK as long as the wrist seal is intact.
>>>>> Drysuit is fine.  it's compressed.  Actually a nice suit if you ask me.
>>>>> You won't need the weights with proper tanks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> At 11:23 AM 2/20/2001 -0800, Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Chris, I've had the twin jets since before I was exposed to DIR.  I
>>>>>> also have a neoprene drysuit, a set of HP doubles, and an atomic
>>>>>> regulator.  Sorry, I just don't have $2k sitting around right now to
>>>>>> change all my gear.  I'm trying to figure out what I can use in the
>>>>>> tech 1 class, and what I need to change.  In the real world you need
>>>>> 
> to
> 
>>>>>> make some compromises.  It's either do the class with most of the gear
>>>>>> I have now, or wait until I have the money to switch all my gear
>>>>>> around, and that could be a while.  So I"m trying to figure out what
>>>>>> will "work", and what I absolutely have to replace now.  I just priced
>>>>>> the jet fins, they are a minor expense, I'll be getting them shortly.
>>>>>> Thanks for your offer to let me borrow your stuff, BTW, but I've long
>>>>>> since learned that you need to train using your own gear, if the
>>>>>> training is to be worth anything.
>>>>>> Just for kicks, here is a list of what I'm using, as you can see I've
>>>>>> already blown a lot of money...
>>>>>> PST HP 100 doubles with isolator manifold
>>>>>> G250/M20 on a necklace, and Atomic on a 7 ft hose.
>>>>>> brass spg.
>>>>>> 10 W HID
>>>>>> Halcyon integrated weights
>>>>>> OMS SS backplate
>>>>>> Harness (webbing from EE, the other stuff I had laying around)
>>>>>> 2 EE backup lights
>>>>>> Diving Concepts compressed neoprene drysuit
>>>>>> Halcyon 65 lb wing (I have some bondage wings sitting in my garage in
>>>>>> case anyone wants them)
>>>>>> Twin jet fins with spring straps (soon to be Jet fins)
>>>>>> Halcyon lift bag
>>>>>> Halcyon Sausage
>>>>>> Dry gloves with ring system (this was a poor choice, but I'm stuck
>>>>> 
> with
> 
>>>>>> it for now).
>>>>>> So here is the question really.  I just don't have the bucks to change
>>>>>> the drysuit and the tanks right now, and I'm sure those two are the
>>>>>> worst offenders.  Should I postpone the class until I've changed
>>>>> 
> those,
> 
>>>>>> or should I take the class now?
>>>>>> Please advise.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Chris Elmore wrote:
>>>>>> ~
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>>>      George was right, "What are we going to do with you?" I've been
>>>>>>> diving
>>>>>>> since '68 and a pressure gauge is the only thing that made it past
>>>>>> 
> the
> 
>> DIR
>> 
>>>>>>> purge. To clarify: DIR stands for Doing It Right. It doesn't mean
>>>>>> 
> Doing
> 
>> It
>> 
>>>>>>> Half-assed Until Later. You keep asking questions, getting good
>>>>>>> answers then
>>>>>>> buying crap anyway. Sign up for a GUE course and I'll let you borrow
>>>>>>> all my
>>>>>>> stuff for the week. Geez, put the coffee on.
>>>>>>> C.
>>>>>>> Chris Elmore
>>>>>>> PalmettoSoft Technologies Corp.
>>>>>>> (803) 233-2001 (work)
>>>>>>> (803) 348-3055 (mobile)
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
>>>>>>> To: <thomas@ha*.ne*>; Steve Schultz
>>>>>>> <se2schul@bl*.ma*.uw*.ca*>;
>>>>>>> Stefan Bolka <sbolka@er*.co*>
>>>>>>> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; GUE Mailing List <quest@gu*.co*>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:59 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Fins question
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  Because I've been diving for a couple of decades, and happen to
>>>>>>> 
> have
> 
>>>>>>>>  some equipment that I purchased before I was exposed to DIR.
>>>>>>>>  DUH!
>>>>>>>>  Thomas Tukker wrote:
>>>>>>>>  ~
>>>>>>>>  >Hmmm, never seen any of those in Wakulla...
>>>>>>>>  >Guess you're in for another purchase.
>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>  >Why not buy what you see all DIR divers wear in the first place,
>>>>>>> 
>> that
>> 
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >be a money saving strategy if you have a limited budget to work
>>>>>>> 
>> with
>> 
>>>>>>> Paul.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>  >TT
>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>  >>  From: Paul Braunbehrens [mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*]
>>>>>>>>  >>  Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 2:07 AM
>>>>>>>>  >>  To: Steve Schultz; Stefan Bolka
>>>>>>>>  >>  Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com; GUE Mailing List
>>>>>>>>  >>  Subject: Re: Fins question
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  Steve, that's not my experience.  I was also wondering if the
>>>>>>> 
>> twin
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  jets are DIR, 'cause when I got a dry suit and had to get
>>>>>>>> larger fins
>>>>>>>>  >>  I did get the twin jets.  As far as how well they work, they
>>>>>>> 
>> work
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  very well.  No cramps, and you will move faster.  They don't
>>>>>>> 
>> "feel"
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  like you're doing much work, i.e. there isn't much resistance
>>>>>>>> to work
>>>>>>>>  >>  against, but if you compare against known variables you'll see
>>>>>>> 
>> that
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  your speed under water has improved.
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  I sure hope they're ok, 'cause I'm already going to blow a lot
>>>>>>> 
>> of
>> 
>>>>>>>  > >>  money on other stuff including the tech1 class, and don't
>>>>>> 
> want
> 
>> to
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  have to buy fins as well.
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  Cheers.
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  Steve Schultz wrote:
>>>>>>>>  >>  ~
>>>>>>>>  >>  >Stefan,
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >Data can be manipulated statistically to serve whoever is
>>>>>>>> publishing
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >info.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >When you read info about fin efficiency, see who is
>>>>>>> 
> publishing
> 
>> the
>> 
>>>>>>> data,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >and ask yourself if they have something to gain.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >More importantly, try it yourself in the water.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >I tried the bio-fin a couple years ago when appollo sponsored
>>>>>>> 
>> an
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >expedition.  I found the fins sucked.  I mean really
>>>>>>>> sucked.  I dive
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jets
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >and only Jets now. Give me 10 pairs of bio-fins for free, and
>>>>>>> 
>> I'll
>> 
>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >be diving my Jets.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >Whoever said bio-fins are more efficient probably didn't have
>>>>>>> 
>> calf
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >muscles, or they sell them.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >BTW, the best DIR equipment list so far is on the WKPP
>>>>>>> 
> website.
> 
>>>>>>> George
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >posted his configuration.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >ss
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Stefan Bolka wrote:
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Ok this is probably gonna get me hurt but...
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Has anyone thought about the natures wing, i.e. scubapro
>>>>>>>> twin jet
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>fins or Apollo bio fin for DIR.  I ask because I recognize
>>>>>>> 
>> that
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>many of us (like me) do not have scooters and the test
>>>>>>> 
> numbers
> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>showing better efficiency sound encouraging.  Do these work
>>>>>>> 
>> for
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>frog kicks?  Could they be used for tech. and not cave or
>>>>>>> 
>> cavern?
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  I am asking because I am trying to start making a "DIR
>>>>>>> 
>> approved
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>equipment list".  yes I have too much time on my hands and
>>>>>>>> figured
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>it makes sense to try and help new divers get into DIR
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>methodologies so I am working on a FAQ.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  If anyone has start a FAQ and not finished let me know,
>>>>>>> 
> I'll
> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  help finish it.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Thanks for the help,
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Stefan.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>>>>>>>>  >>  >For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  --
>>>>>>>>  >>  Paul B.
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>>>>>>>>  >>  For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>  Paul B.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> 
>> -
>> 
>>>>>>>>  To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>>>>>>>>  For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- Paul B.
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
>>>>> 
>> --
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