ok
first, if you read Pauls post you should have been able to infer that he 
was discussing the weight of the tanks on dry land.
If you ever tried to lift a set of 104s and then right away move a set 
of 80's, like i do when im filling in my garage, you would see the 
difference between the two, and it should have been one fifth the cost 
and one third the wt, as you can see from you chart  the al is 2/3 the 
wt of steel, and used 80s go around 50 bucks a piece here, while steel 
anything is in the 280 range at least.

btw ive seen half a dozen internet tank charts, all different ##'s. to 
each his own i guess..............

marv


William Hulik wrote:

> >From what I read the AL80 are for the ocean when
> diving WET.  Appropriate sized/weight steel is
> acceptable when Dry.
> 
> How is AL 1/5 the weight of steel?????  
> 
> Direct from NitroxDiver.com
> http://www.nitroxdiver.com/Library/tanks.html
> Tank       Weight      Buoyancy Empty
> OMS 85     31.0        0.0
> OMS 98     38.0        0.0
> FAB 95     37.6        -1.2
> AL  80     31.6        +4.1
> PST 104    46.0        -2.5
> 
> Is it me or is your math off just a little here.  An
> AL80 IS about 1/3 lighter than a PST 104 but is
> similar enough to other steels that is would not be a
> deciding factor unless diving wet (because of its
> inherent buoyancy).  
> 
> In my opinion - a diver wearing double LP 104's for
> ocean boat diving might as well be an anchor.  Never
> mind trying to climb the ladder in a rough sea.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> --- Kevin Connell <kevin@co*.ne*> wrote:
> 
>> Marv, is it DIR because you read something george
>> wrote (out of 
>> context)  and you happen to use the same equipment?
>> 
>> Can you come out here and retrain everyone, maybe
>> offer some lectures on 
>> DIR?   We seem to be stroking out big time with
>> steel tanks.
>> 
>> armchair  diving at its finest.
>> 
>> At 11:37 PM 2/20/2001 -0500, Marv wrote:
>> 
>>> THis is not just a Paul thing but since he brougth
>> 
>> it up, its the ideal 
>> 
>>> place for it.
>>> 
>>> If you are diving in the ocean , what is the ideal
>> 
>> tank?
>> 
>>> not what tank can you make work or what tank is
>> 
>> kind of ok, but what tank 
>> 
>>> is DIR??
>>> 
>>> its the   ALUMINUM 80
>>> 
>>> These tanks are one third the cost of steel
>> 
>> whatevers and one fifth the 
>> 
>>> weight.
>>> 
>>> They are the ultimate tank in terms of buoyancy,
>> 
>> when manifolded&doubled 
>> 
>>> up with a steel plate for drysuit diving you will
>> 
>> not realize you are 
>> 
>>> wearing tanks, they have more than enuff gas for
>> 
>> most reasonable dives, 
>> 
>>> and they are by definition the dir tank of choice
>> 
>> for the ocean. They are 
>> 
>>> easy to dive with a tls 350, c4 14 size light and a
>> 
>> weight belt or if you 
>> 
>>> must a v weight.
>>> 
>>> check out Georges article on wkpp.org if you doubt
>> 
>> what i am telling you. 
>> 
>>> Its right there in black and white.or read below.
>>> 
>>> Marv
>>> 
>>> From "Equipment Configuration", G. Irvine,
>> 
>> wkpp.org
>> 
>>> "  For ocean, aluminum 80's are the tank of choice.
>> 
>> If more gas is needed,
>> 
>>> take an aluminum stage, but don't risk your life
>> 
>> being over weighted at
>> 
>>> the beginning of the dive. The buoyancy
>> 
>> characteristics of aluminum,
>> 
>>> especially when using helium , are such that a
>> 
>> weight belt and or
>> 
>>> canister light will provide the necessary ballast
>> 
>> which can be dropped
>> 
>>> in an emergency, making the rig only reasonably
>> 
>> negative when full,
>> 
>>> neutral when empty, but swimable by dropping the
>> 
>> weight. "
>> 
>>>                  ----George Irvine
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I already replaced a bunch of stuff, this is not
>>> 
>> the beginning of 
>> 
>>>> switching to a DIR setup.  The DIR tanks cost $900
>>> 
>> and weigh a ton. I 
>> 
>>>> can't stomach it in my pocketbook or knees right
>>> 
>> now.  Someone else said 
>> 
>>>> my tanks will work for now.
>>>> Kevin Connell wrote:
>>>> ~
>>>> 
>>>>> So what's the problem paul, you only need to
>>>> 
>> replace your tanks and your 
>> 
>>>>> fins.  you did way better than I did, I had to
>>>> 
>> replace everything.
>> 
>>>>> Dry gloves are OK as long as the wrist seal is
>>>> 
>> intact.
>> 
>>>>> Drysuit is fine.  it's compressed.  Actually a
>>>> 
>> nice suit if you ask me.
>> 
>>>>> You won't need the weights with proper tanks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> At 11:23 AM 2/20/2001 -0800, Paul Braunbehrens
>>>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>> Chris, I've had the twin jets since before I was
>>>>> 
>> exposed to DIR.  I 
>> 
>>>>>> also have a neoprene drysuit, a set of HP
>>>>> 
>> doubles, and an atomic 
>> 
>>>>>> regulator.  Sorry, I just don't have $2k sitting
>>>>> 
>> around right now to 
>> 
>>>>>> change all my gear.  I'm trying to figure out
>>>>> 
>> what I can use in the 
>> 
>>>>>> tech 1 class, and what I need to change.  In the
>>>>> 
>> real world you need to 
>> 
>>>>>> make some compromises.  It's either do the class
>>>>> 
>> with most of the gear 
>> 
>>>>>> I have now, or wait until I have the money to
>>>>> 
>> switch all my gear 
>> 
>>>>>> around, and that could be a while.  So I"m
>>>>> 
>> trying to figure out what 
>> 
>>>>>> will "work", and what I absolutely have to
>>>>> 
>> replace now.  I just priced 
>> 
>>>>>> the jet fins, they are a minor expense, I'll be
>>>>> 
>> getting them shortly.
>> 
>>>>>> Thanks for your offer to let me borrow your
>>>>> 
>> stuff, BTW, but I've long 
>> 
>>>>>> since learned that you need to train using your
>>>>> 
>> own gear, if the 
>> 
>>>>>> training is to be worth anything.
>>>>>> Just for kicks, here is a list of what I'm
>>>>> 
>> using, as you can see I've 
>> 
>>>>>> already blown a lot of money...
>>>>>> PST HP 100 doubles with isolator manifold
>>>>>> G250/M20 on a necklace, and Atomic on a 7 ft
>>>>> 
>> hose.
>> 
>>>>>> brass spg.
>>>>>> 10 W HID
>>>>>> Halcyon integrated weights
>>>>>> OMS SS backplate
>>>>>> Harness (webbing from EE, the other stuff I had
>>>>> 
>> laying around)
>> 
>>>>>> 2 EE backup lights
>>>>>> Diving Concepts compressed neoprene drysuit
>>>>>> Halcyon 65 lb wing (I have some bondage wings
>>>>> 
>> sitting in my garage in 
>> 
>>>>>> case anyone wants them)
>>>>>> Twin jet fins with spring straps (soon to be Jet
>>>>> 
>> fins)
>> 
>>>>>> Halcyon lift bag
>>>>>> Halcyon Sausage
>>>>>> Dry gloves with ring system (this was a poor
>>>>> 
>> choice, but I'm stuck with 
>> 
>>>>>> it for now).
>>>>>> So here is the question really.  I just don't
>>>>> 
>> have the bucks to change 
>> 
>>>>>> the drysuit and the tanks right now, and I'm
>>>>> 
>> sure those two are the 
>> 
>>>>>> worst offenders.  Should I postpone the class
>>>>> 
>> until I've changed those, 
>> 
>>>>>> or should I take the class now?
>>>>>> Please advise.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Chris Elmore wrote:
>>>>>> ~
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>>>      George was right, "What are we going to
>>>>>> 
>> do with you?" I've been 
>> 
>>>>>>> diving
>>>>>>> since '68 and a pressure gauge is the only
>>>>>> 
>> thing that made it past the DIR
>> 
>>>>>>> purge. To clarify: DIR stands for Doing It
>>>>>> 
>> Right. It doesn't mean Doing It
>> 
>>>>>>> Half-assed Until Later. You keep asking
>>>>>> 
>> questions, getting good 
>> 
>>>>>>> answers then
>>>>>>> buying crap anyway. Sign up for a GUE course
>>>>>> 
>> and I'll let you borrow 
>> 
>>>>>>> all my
>>>>>>> stuff for the week. Geez, put the coffee on.
>>>>>>> C.
>>>>>>> Chris Elmore
>>>>>>> PalmettoSoft Technologies Corp.
>>>>>>> (803) 233-2001 (work)
>>>>>>> (803) 348-3055 (mobile)
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
>>>>>>> To: <thomas@ha*.ne*>; Steve Schultz 
>>>>>>> <se2schul@bl*.ma*.uw*.ca*>;
>>>>>>> Stefan Bolka <sbolka@er*.co*>
>>>>>>> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; GUE Mailing List
>>>>>> 
>> <quest@gu*.co*>
>> 
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:59 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Fins question
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  Because I've been diving for a couple of
>>>>>>> 
>> decades, and happen to have
>> 
>>>>>>>>  some equipment that I purchased before I was
>>>>>>> 
>> exposed to DIR.
>> 
>>>>>>>>  DUH!
>>>>>>>>  Thomas Tukker wrote:
>>>>>>>>  ~
>>>>>>>>  >Hmmm, never seen any of those in Wakulla...
>>>>>>>>  >Guess you're in for another purchase.
>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>  >Why not buy what you see all DIR divers
>>>>>>> 
>> wear in the first place, that
>> 
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >be a money saving strategy if you have a
>>>>>>> 
>> limited budget to work with
>> 
>>>>>>> Paul.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>  >TT
>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>  >>  From: Paul Braunbehrens
>>>>>>> 
>> [mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*]
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 2:07 AM
>>>>>>>>  >>  To: Steve Schultz; Stefan Bolka
>>>>>>>>  >>  Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com; GUE Mailing
>>>>>>> 
>> List
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  Subject: Re: Fins question
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  Steve, that's not my experience.  I was
>>>>>>> 
>> also wondering if the twin
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  jets are DIR, 'cause when I got a dry
>>>>>>> 
>> suit and had to get 
>> 
>>>>>>>> larger fins
>>>>>>>>  >>  I did get the twin jets.  As far as how
>>>>>>> 
>> well they work, they work
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  very well.  No cramps, and you will move
>>>>>>> 
>> faster.  They don't "feel"
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  like you're doing much work, i.e. there
>>>>>>> 
>> isn't much resistance 
>> 
>>>>>>>> to work
>>>>>>>>  >>  against, but if you compare against
>>>>>>> 
>> known variables you'll see that
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  your speed under water has improved.
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  I sure hope they're ok, 'cause I'm
>>>>>>> 
>> already going to blow a lot of
>> 
>>>>>>>  > >>  money on other stuff including the
>>>>>> 
>> tech1 class, and don't want to
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  have to buy fins as well.
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  Cheers.
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  Steve Schultz wrote:
>>>>>>>>  >>  ~
>>>>>>>>  >>  >Stefan,
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >Data can be manipulated statistically
>>>>>>> 
>> to serve whoever is 
>> 
>>>>>>>> publishing
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >info.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >When you read info about fin
>>>>>>> 
>> efficiency, see who is publishing the
>> 
>>>>>>> data,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >and ask yourself if they have something
>>>>>>> 
>> to gain.
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >More importantly, try it yourself in
>>>>>>> 
>> the water.
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >I tried the bio-fin a couple years ago
>>>>>>> 
>> when appollo sponsored an
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >expedition.  I found the fins sucked. 
>>>>>>> 
>> I mean really 
>> 
>>>>>>>> sucked.  I dive
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jets
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >and only Jets now. Give me 10 pairs of
>>>>>>> 
>> bio-fins for free, and I'll
>> 
>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >be diving my Jets.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >Whoever said bio-fins are more
>>>>>>> 
>> efficient probably didn't have calf
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >muscles, or they sell them.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >BTW, the best DIR equipment list so far
>>>>>>> 
>> is on the WKPP website.
>> 
>>>>>>> George
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >posted his configuration.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >ss
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Stefan Bolka
>>>>>>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Ok this is probably gonna get me
>>>>>>> 
>> hurt but...
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Has anyone thought about the natures
>>>>>>> 
>> wing, i.e. scubapro 
>> 
>>>>>>>> twin jet
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>fins or Apollo bio fin for DIR.  I ask
>>>>>>> 
>> because I recognize that
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>many of us (like me) do not have
>>>>>>> 
>> scooters and the test numbers
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>showing better efficiency sound
>>>>>>> 
>> encouraging.  Do these work for
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>frog kicks?  Could they be used for
>>>>>>> 
>> tech. and not cave or cavern?
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  I am asking because I am trying to
>>>>>>> 
>> start making a "DIR approved
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>equipment list".  yes I have too much
>>>>>>> 
>> time on my hands and 
>> 
>>>>>>>> figured
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>it makes sense to try and help new
>>>>>>> 
>> divers get into DIR
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>methodologies so I am working on a
>>>>>>> 
>> FAQ.
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  If anyone has start a FAQ and not
>>>>>>> 
>> finished let me know, I'll
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  help finish it.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Thanks for the help,
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Stefan.
>>>>>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>  >
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>>>>> 
>> quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  >For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>>>>> 
>> quest-help@gu*.co*
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>  --
>>>>>>>>  >>  Paul B.
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>>>>> 
>> quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>  For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>>>>> 
>> quest-help@gu*.co*
>> 
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>  Paul B.
>>>>>>>> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>>>>>>>>  To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>>>>> 
>> quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>> 
>>>>>>>>  For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>>>>> 
>> quest-help@gu*.co*
>> 
>>>>>> -- Paul B.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>>> 
>> quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
>> 
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>>> 
>> quest-help@gu*.co*
>> 
>> --
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