Dale,

Your post was obviously directed at me.  I will do my best to address it.

I am not a cave diver, but I am an ice diver.  I do not dive ice like a cave
yet, but I plan to in the future.  You say that ice is not the same as a
cave.  When did you dive a cave last?  I see similarities between cave and
ice.  They are both overhead environments with (for the most part) a single
entry and exit point.  

I agree that your average OW diver shouldn't be using this technique, but
someone who is cave trained should have no problem.

My biggest complaint about PADI ice diving is that on top of the DIR harness
with its 3 simple D-rings, you have another harness with a lot of D-rings.
This is not DIR.  Then you have a rope attached, and when you are done your
dive, you get hauled in by the line handler.  

I think that is unsafe and I'd like to find an alternative to this.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: CaptnDale@ao*.co* [mailto:CaptnDale@ao*.co*]
Sent: October 22, 2000 12:45 AM
To: Steven.Schultz@sp*.gc*.ca*; laocoon@et*.or*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: Ice diving


In a message dated 10/21/00 9:29:34 PM EST, Trimixjoe writes:

<< If you ask the typical ice diving instructor (Being Ice Diving
Instructor

Certified Myself) how to ice dive and what is the proper equipment to use
for 
ice diving, he/she will have you rigged for bungy jumping. Ice diving has
had 
very little written on the subject, and the procedures that are being used 
today are limiting which are set up for nit-wit divers. As Instructors we
not 
allowed to step outside the standards it would be a violation. There are 
better ways of ice diving then being used by the training agencies today and

it can help those already certified in ice diving to discuss over the 
Internet better procedures, and equipment.  >>

I agree that some of the prodedures being recommended by the agencies are 
stupid but I do not think they are dangerous.  Unfortunately, some of the 
prodeedures being recommended on the internet by persons who, obviously,
have 
little or no experience in this type of diving have the potential to create 
dangerous situations.  My point is that not everyone who posts in this forum

has a clue.  Cave diving does not equal ice diving.  If an instructor does 
not think that he can adequately train his students within the standards of 
his agency, he is bound, ethically, to go outside those standards.  He needs

to exceed those standards, teach an unsanctioned course or find a different 
agency.  I repeat, if you want to learn to ice dive find an instructor you 
trust who actually is an ice diver.

Safe diving,
Dale 
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