I never said that I am balanced out of my gear.  I'm not.  I hate weight
belts, and only wear them with a minimum of lead.  I would do almost
whatever it takes to avoid taking my gear off under water, but if I had
to, I would

Curious:  George, do you and the WKPP guys use belts?  Why or why not?

I don't that you want to be neutral without tanks, since putting tanks on
means you'll be really negative during most of the dive.  You'll have to
put too much air in the wing, so you won't stay horizontal during the
dive, plus the air in the wing add drag.

steve


On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, dmdalton wrote:

> Couple of thoughts on this issue:
> 
> If you are going to say you must be in a neutral state without you gear on
> (just you and your exposure suit) they you must figure what you need to
> offset your exposure suit - consequently it can't be just a 6# weight belt.
> 
> If you are diving trilaminate your buoyancy factor is consistent from the
> surface to whatever depth you are going to dive - assuming you dive it right
> and only add enough gas to take the pinch off. With this suit you will need
> 16-30# based on your undergarments and your size. A 6# belt would not offer
> much help in keeping you balanced without your other gear.
> 
> If you are diving a neoprene drysuit or a wet suit, you will NEVER have a
> balanced situation except at one depth. If you are neutral at  the surface
> with a 20# belt you will be negative 10# at 33fsw. Not exactly "balanced".
> 
> The definition of "balanced" that I understand (and utilize) is that your
> gear (with tanks between 0 & 500 psi) allow you to be neutral with no air in
> your wings/BC at 10-20 ft. That way the only excess weight your wings/BC has
> to provide lift for is the weight of the air in your tanks at the start of
> your dive, allowing you to dive smaller (=less drag) wings) (assuming you
> dive trilaminate).
> 
> Use your head.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
> To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 11:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Weights
> 
> 
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I honestly can't think of a situation that would require you to take off
> all
> > your gear underwater besides getting stuck in a restriction so small that
> > you shouldn't have been diving it anyway.
> >
> > I think that the chances of getting into a situation needing full gear
> > removal is so slight that it doesn't warrant a weight belt.
> >
> > Weight belts do have their place in diving, I still use mine quite
> > frequently depending on the setup I'm using, I just never dive it with
> more
> > than 6 lbs now.  Even getting rid of those 6 lbs makes a huge difference
> for
> > comfort.
> >
> > So John, what likely scenarios require you to take all your gear off?
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> > To: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
> > Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 5:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: Weights
> >
> >
> > > "Gi Day" Steve.
> > >
> > > Steve you said it in your last comment "WEAR A BALANCED RIG".
> > >
> > > If and WHEN the shit hits the fan and the diver has no choice but to get
> > out
> > > of his gear.
> > > If the diver independent of his rig is balanced, the task loading in a
> > > highly stressed situation will be significantly reduced.
> > > If you need to add weight to your rig to achieve this balance then do
> so,
> > a
> > > P/V weight in this case would be practical.
> > >
> > > The guys that don't take their gear off under water if its the only way
> to
> > > fix the problem DIE.
> > >
> > > I also hate wearing a weight belt, however it doesn't have to be too
> heavy
> > > as it is only adjusting the buoyancy of the diver not the Diver and the
> > rig.
> > >
> > > Hoo Roo
> > > Johnny Mack
> > > Down Under.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
> > > To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>; Techdiver Mailing List
> > > <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 11:48 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > >
> > >
> > > > Since when does a P/V weight constitute weights "all over the place
> "???
> > > >
> > > > Why is a weight belt more effective?  Why are you taking your gear off
> > > > underwater?
> > > > Think about this... Pressed Steel 104s + Drysuit + SS backplate = no
> > > > additional weight!
> > > > What do those guys do when they take off their gear underwater?  They
> > > don't.
> > > >
> > > > Comfort-wise, I hate weight belts with a passion.  Getting rid of it
> > will
> > > > provide more comfort, less wear on your exposure suit, and better
> > airflow
> > > > through your drysuit.
> > > >
> > > > Getting up off the bottom is easy... dive a balanced rig.
> > > >
> > > > steve
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> > > > To: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:30 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I read a lot of crap in the many posts that have been presented over
> > the
> > > > > last few days regarding weighting. Most of the suggestions have been
> > > down
> > > > > right bloody dangerous, stupid, and idiotic. Hey guys what happened
> to
> > > > > keeping it simple. We should weight ourselves with out tanks harness
> > etc
> > > > > attached, just negative. if we are still negative with the tanks and
> > > > harness
> > > > > etc on then we are correctly weighted. Using the traditional weight
> > belt
> > > > is
> > > > > the most effective way of doing this. Have a bloody good think about
> > why
> > > > you
> > > > > should be weighted this way before you make any comments. The guys
> > that
> > > > want
> > > > > to wear tank weights etc all over the place have a think about
> > buoyancy
> > > > > control if you have to take your gear off in water at depth. If and
> > when
> > > > the
> > > > > shit hits the fan and you have to do this with weights all over your
> > > gear
> > > > > "good luck".
> > > > >
> > > > > Hoo Roo
> > > > > Johnny Mack
> > > > > Down Under
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: John Walker <techdive@ea*.ne*>
> > > > > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:11 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >    Hell Cobber they give me a sore back.  I'd bet Mike Black (you
> > > know,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > guy that doesn't dive) would consider this a Type 2 DCS hit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     Dr. John Walker
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ma*.ci*.co*>
> > > > > > To: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>; Paul Braunbehrens
> > > > > > <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
> > > > > > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:02 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Weight belt for wetsuits. Weight belt fucks up the airflow in
> your
> > > > > drysuit
> > > > > > > and is a failure point. I hate weight belts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >    Jim
> > > > > >
> >   -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >  Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>
> > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 03:24:40 -0400
> > > > > > > > To: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
> > > > > > > > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I dont mean to flame Paul personally but I have to ask some
> > simple
> > > > > > questions
> > > > > > > > here.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why is the weight belt not ideal? its cheap, easy to learn,
> and
> > > > found
> > > > > > > > everywhere.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The belt gives you a built in failure indicator< if you are
> > paying
> > > > > > attnetion
> > > > > > > > you can feel it slip, and thats easy to correct on your own>
> and
> > > if
> > > > > its
> > > > > > > > under you crotch stap has a built in anti ditch safety.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > and also
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > what is the facination with non ditchable weight?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > especially on a rig that is limited to no stop diving by
> > > > definition??
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I can understand its significance on a deco dive, but you all
> do
> > > > > realize
> > > > > > > > that if your worst fears come true and you undergo a buoyant
> > > ascent
> > > > ,
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > are merely performing skills practice?? That evey agency has
> > blow
> > > > and
> > > > > go
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > its last resort for ndl diving?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > have any of you removed your weights during a dive? what was
> the
> > > > > result?
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > had my belt off three times in front of the class i was
> helping
> > > with
> > > > > > tonite,
> > > > > > > > no problem with an al 80 with an al plate and a 1/4 suit  in
> 12
> > ft
> > > > of
> > > > > > water,
> > > > > > > > i had plenty of time to dump the bc and remain with my weight
> > belt
> > > > > with
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > a little effort. Are we all just not paying attention?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > worried about buckle failure? wear two.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We are not even going to get into the pony bottle, but fyi my
> > > > > > understanding
> > > > > > > > of hogarthian means ultra minimal as in no reserve gas, even
> in
> > > > > > overhead.
> > > > > > > > and of course the bottle is unnecessary for anything, you can
> > > either
> > > > > > blow
> > > > > > > > and go or you cant and if you cant you need a real redundant
> > > system,
> > > > > not
> > > > > > 13
> > > > > > > > freaking cu ft. This w/e i was forced to dive off the bow b/c
> > the
> > > > > > customers
> > > > > > > > used up all the rack space with their pony bottles filled with
> > > > nitrox
> > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > hot for the bottom< typical, they have all been hosed and
> regard
> > > dir
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > internet bs>and then i had to endure the shop owners bitching
> > > about
> > > > my
> > > > > > > > doubles being too much gear for the dives< which they were,
> but
> > i
> > > > > needed
> > > > > > > > them empty and gas costs money so i aint freaking wasting
> it>so
> > i
> > > am
> > > > > > ready
> > > > > > > > for all comers on this pony bullshit.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You dont need a pony bottle unless you are solo diving without
> a
> > > > plan.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Think it through people.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Al Marvelli
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > PS if those two quarry guys dont send me snail addresses ill
> > never
> > > > be
> > > > > > able
> > > > > > > > to mail them schedules and since i lost my inbox i dont
> > havetheir
> > > e
> > > > > > > > addresses, so get back to me fellas.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> OK, I went through tons of archives last night, trying to get
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > >> bottom of this.  First, let me tell you my setup.  I'm diving
> a
> > > > > > > >> backplate and wings, with a drysuit, and (for now) a single
> > tank
> > > > and
> > > > > > > >> a pony bottle.  Leaving enough air in my suit so I can still
> > move
> > > > and
> > > > > > > >> do a safety stop at the end of a dive, I need 17 pounds on my
> > > belt
> > > > (I
> > > > > > > >> dive in cold water).
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Right now this weight is on my weight belt, which is ok but
> not
> > > > > ideal.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Perusing the archives, it seems the consensus is to make a V
> > > weight
> > > > > > > >> for at least some of this.  Let's say it will weigh about 9
> > > Pounds.
> > > > > > > >> This still leaves 8 pounds.  I could then either leave that
> on
> > my
> > > > > > > >> weight belt, or I could put it in the Halcyon weight pouches.
> > I
> > > > > > > >> assume that when I go to doubles I won't need most of it
> > anymore?
> > > > > > > >> Also, DiveRite sells a "trim weight" that will fit between
> the
> > > > bolts
> > > > > > > >> on the backplate.  I was thinking of this as an option.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Also, I read a lot of posts saying the canister light is 6
> > pounds
> > > > > > > >> negative (or thereabouts).  Mine is 1.5 pounds negative,
> which
> > > > means
> > > > > > > >> I have to account for that weight somewhere.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> One post I read which made a lot of sense, said that you
> should
> > > > have
> > > > > > > >> about 5 or 6 pounds of ditchable weight (if any).  When you
> > ditch
> > > > > > > >> your weight you don't want to become so positive as to end up
> > in
> > > > > > > >> lunar orbit.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I would like to get as close to hogarthian as possible before
> > > > moving
> > > > > > > >> to doubles, so any help is appreciated.  I'm even moving my
> > > > canister
> > > > > > > >> back on my harness (I had it upside down and attached to the
> > > > > > > >> backplate, but I find that it has a tendency to sit on the
> > wiring
> > > > > > > >> connection...not good).
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > >> Paul Braunbehrens mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*
> > > > > > > >> http://www.daw-mac.com Mailing list for digital audio on the
> > mac
> > > > > > > >> --
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