I use a belt with 80's in the ocean. I used a little one in California with
steels so I could blow my suit up more due to the cold water. We don't use
them cave diving.


From: Steve Schultz <se2schul@st*.ma*.uw*.ca*>
To: dmdalton <dmdalton@qu*.ne*>
Cc: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>; Techdiver Mailing List
<techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Sunday, June 18, 2000 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: Weights - question for WKPP guys


>
>I never said that I am balanced out of my gear.  I'm not.  I hate weight
>belts, and only wear them with a minimum of lead.  I would do almost
>whatever it takes to avoid taking my gear off under water, but if I had
>to, I would
>
>Curious:  George, do you and the WKPP guys use belts?  Why or why not?
>
>I don't that you want to be neutral without tanks, since putting tanks on
>means you'll be really negative during most of the dive.  You'll have to
>put too much air in the wing, so you won't stay horizontal during the
>dive, plus the air in the wing add drag.
>
>steve
>
>
>On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, dmdalton wrote:
>
>> Couple of thoughts on this issue:
>>
>> If you are going to say you must be in a neutral state without you gear
on
>> (just you and your exposure suit) they you must figure what you need to
>> offset your exposure suit - consequently it can't be just a 6# weight
belt.
>>
>> If you are diving trilaminate your buoyancy factor is consistent from the
>> surface to whatever depth you are going to dive - assuming you dive it
right
>> and only add enough gas to take the pinch off. With this suit you will
need
>> 16-30# based on your undergarments and your size. A 6# belt would not
offer
>> much help in keeping you balanced without your other gear.
>>
>> If you are diving a neoprene drysuit or a wet suit, you will NEVER have a
>> balanced situation except at one depth. If you are neutral at  the
surface
>> with a 20# belt you will be negative 10# at 33fsw. Not exactly
"balanced".
>>
>> The definition of "balanced" that I understand (and utilize) is that your
>> gear (with tanks between 0 & 500 psi) allow you to be neutral with no air
in
>> your wings/BC at 10-20 ft. That way the only excess weight your wings/BC
has
>> to provide lift for is the weight of the air in your tanks at the start
of
>> your dive, allowing you to dive smaller (=less drag) wings) (assuming you
>> dive trilaminate).
>>
>> Use your head.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
>> To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
>> Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 11:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: Weights
>>
>>
>> > Hi John,
>> >
>> > I honestly can't think of a situation that would require you to take
off
>> all
>> > your gear underwater besides getting stuck in a restriction so small
that
>> > you shouldn't have been diving it anyway.
>> >
>> > I think that the chances of getting into a situation needing full gear
>> > removal is so slight that it doesn't warrant a weight belt.
>> >
>> > Weight belts do have their place in diving, I still use mine quite
>> > frequently depending on the setup I'm using, I just never dive it with
>> more
>> > than 6 lbs now.  Even getting rid of those 6 lbs makes a huge
difference
>> for
>> > comfort.
>> >
>> > So John, what likely scenarios require you to take all your gear off?
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
>> > To: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
>> > Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 5:05 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Weights
>> >
>> >
>> > > "Gi Day" Steve.
>> > >
>> > > Steve you said it in your last comment "WEAR A BALANCED RIG".
>> > >
>> > > If and WHEN the shit hits the fan and the diver has no choice but to
get
>> > out
>> > > of his gear.
>> > > If the diver independent of his rig is balanced, the task loading in
a
>> > > highly stressed situation will be significantly reduced.
>> > > If you need to add weight to your rig to achieve this balance then do
>> so,
>> > a
>> > > P/V weight in this case would be practical.
>> > >
>> > > The guys that don't take their gear off under water if its the only
way
>> to
>> > > fix the problem DIE.
>> > >
>> > > I also hate wearing a weight belt, however it doesn't have to be too
>> heavy
>> > > as it is only adjusting the buoyancy of the diver not the Diver and
the
>> > rig.
>> > >
>> > > Hoo Roo
>> > > Johnny Mack
>> > > Down Under.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
>> > > To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>; Techdiver Mailing List
>> > > <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> > > Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 11:48 PM
>> > > Subject: Re: Weights
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Since when does a P/V weight constitute weights "all over the place
>> "???
>> > > >
>> > > > Why is a weight belt more effective?  Why are you taking your gear
off
>> > > > underwater?
>> > > > Think about this... Pressed Steel 104s + Drysuit + SS backplate =
no
>> > > > additional weight!
>> > > > What do those guys do when they take off their gear underwater?
They
>> > > don't.
>> > > >
>> > > > Comfort-wise, I hate weight belts with a passion.  Getting rid of
it
>> > will
>> > > > provide more comfort, less wear on your exposure suit, and better
>> > airflow
>> > > > through your drysuit.
>> > > >
>> > > > Getting up off the bottom is easy... dive a balanced rig.
>> > > >
>> > > > steve
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
>> > > > To: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:30 AM
>> > > > Subject: Re: Weights
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > I read a lot of crap in the many posts that have been presented
over
>> > the
>> > > > > last few days regarding weighting. Most of the suggestions have
been
>> > > down
>> > > > > right bloody dangerous, stupid, and idiotic. Hey guys what
happened
>> to
>> > > > > keeping it simple. We should weight ourselves with out tanks
harness
>> > etc
>> > > > > attached, just negative. if we are still negative with the tanks
and
>> > > > harness
>> > > > > etc on then we are correctly weighted. Using the traditional
weight
>> > belt
>> > > > is
>> > > > > the most effective way of doing this. Have a bloody good think
about
>> > why
>> > > > you
>> > > > > should be weighted this way before you make any comments. The
guys
>> > that
>> > > > want
>> > > > > to wear tank weights etc all over the place have a think about
>> > buoyancy
>> > > > > control if you have to take your gear off in water at depth. If
and
>> > when
>> > > > the
>> > > > > shit hits the fan and you have to do this with weights all over
your
>> > > gear
>> > > > > "good luck".
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Hoo Roo
>> > > > > Johnny Mack
>> > > > > Down Under
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > From: John Walker <techdive@ea*.ne*>
>> > > > > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:11 AM
>> > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >    Hell Cobber they give me a sore back.  I'd bet Mike Black
(you
>> > > know,
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > > guy that doesn't dive) would consider this a Type 2 DCS hit.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >     Dr. John Walker
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ma*.ci*.co*>
>> > > > > > To: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>; Paul Braunbehrens
>> > > > > > <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
>> > > > > > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:02 AM
>> > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Weight belt for wetsuits. Weight belt fucks up the airflow in
>> your
>> > > > > drysuit
>> > > > > > > and is a failure point. I hate weight belts.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >    Jim
>> > > > > >
>> >   -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > > >  Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > From: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>
>> > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 03:24:40 -0400
>> > > > > > > > To: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
>> > > > > > > > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > I dont mean to flame Paul personally but I have to ask some
>> > simple
>> > > > > > questions
>> > > > > > > > here.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Why is the weight belt not ideal? its cheap, easy to learn,
>> and
>> > > > found
>> > > > > > > > everywhere.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > The belt gives you a built in failure indicator< if you are
>> > paying
>> > > > > > attnetion
>> > > > > > > > you can feel it slip, and thats easy to correct on your
own>
>> and
>> > > if
>> > > > > its
>> > > > > > > > under you crotch stap has a built in anti ditch safety.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > and also
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > what is the facination with non ditchable weight?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > especially on a rig that is limited to no stop diving by
>> > > > definition??
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > I can understand its significance on a deco dive, but you
all
>> do
>> > > > > realize
>> > > > > > > > that if your worst fears come true and you undergo a
buoyant
>> > > ascent
>> > > > ,
>> > > > > > you
>> > > > > > > > are merely performing skills practice?? That evey agency
has
>> > blow
>> > > > and
>> > > > > go
>> > > > > > as
>> > > > > > > > its last resort for ndl diving?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > have any of you removed your weights during a dive? what
was
>> the
>> > > > > result?
>> > > > > > I
>> > > > > > > > had my belt off three times in front of the class i was
>> helping
>> > > with
>> > > > > > tonite,
>> > > > > > > > no problem with an al 80 with an al plate and a 1/4 suit
in
>> 12
>> > ft
>> > > > of
>> > > > > > water,
>> > > > > > > > i had plenty of time to dump the bc and remain with my
weight
>> > belt
>> > > > > with
>> > > > > > just
>> > > > > > > > a little effort. Are we all just not paying attention?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > worried about buckle failure? wear two.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > We are not even going to get into the pony bottle, but fyi
my
>> > > > > > understanding
>> > > > > > > > of hogarthian means ultra minimal as in no reserve gas,
even
>> in
>> > > > > > overhead.
>> > > > > > > > and of course the bottle is unnecessary for anything, you
can
>> > > either
>> > > > > > blow
>> > > > > > > > and go or you cant and if you cant you need a real
redundant
>> > > system,
>> > > > > not
>> > > > > > 13
>> > > > > > > > freaking cu ft. This w/e i was forced to dive off the bow
b/c
>> > the
>> > > > > > customers
>> > > > > > > > used up all the rack space with their pony bottles filled
with
>> > > > nitrox
>> > > > > > too
>> > > > > > > > hot for the bottom< typical, they have all been hosed and
>> regard
>> > > dir
>> > > > > as
>> > > > > > > > internet bs>and then i had to endure the shop owners
bitching
>> > > about
>> > > > my
>> > > > > > > > doubles being too much gear for the dives< which they were,
>> but
>> > i
>> > > > > needed
>> > > > > > > > them empty and gas costs money so i aint freaking wasting
>> it>so
>> > i
>> > > am
>> > > > > > ready
>> > > > > > > > for all comers on this pony bullshit.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > You dont need a pony bottle unless you are solo diving
without
>> a
>> > > > plan.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Think it through people.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Al Marvelli
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > PS if those two quarry guys dont send me snail addresses
ill
>> > never
>> > > > be
>> > > > > > able
>> > > > > > > > to mail them schedules and since i lost my inbox i dont
>> > havetheir
>> > > e
>> > > > > > > > addresses, so get back to me fellas.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >> OK, I went through tons of archives last night, trying to
get
>> > to
>> > > > the
>> > > > > > > >> bottom of this.  First, let me tell you my setup.  I'm
diving
>> a
>> > > > > > > >> backplate and wings, with a drysuit, and (for now) a
single
>> > tank
>> > > > and
>> > > > > > > >> a pony bottle.  Leaving enough air in my suit so I can
still
>> > move
>> > > > and
>> > > > > > > >> do a safety stop at the end of a dive, I need 17 pounds on
my
>> > > belt
>> > > > (I
>> > > > > > > >> dive in cold water).
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Right now this weight is on my weight belt, which is ok
but
>> not
>> > > > > ideal.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Perusing the archives, it seems the consensus is to make a
V
>> > > weight
>> > > > > > > >> for at least some of this.  Let's say it will weigh about
9
>> > > Pounds.
>> > > > > > > >> This still leaves 8 pounds.  I could then either leave
that
>> on
>> > my
>> > > > > > > >> weight belt, or I could put it in the Halcyon weight
pouches.
>> > I
>> > > > > > > >> assume that when I go to doubles I won't need most of it
>> > anymore?
>> > > > > > > >> Also, DiveRite sells a "trim weight" that will fit between
>> the
>> > > > bolts
>> > > > > > > >> on the backplate.  I was thinking of this as an option.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Also, I read a lot of posts saying the canister light is 6
>> > pounds
>> > > > > > > >> negative (or thereabouts).  Mine is 1.5 pounds negative,
>> which
>> > > > means
>> > > > > > > >> I have to account for that weight somewhere.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> One post I read which made a lot of sense, said that you
>> should
>> > > > have
>> > > > > > > >> about 5 or 6 pounds of ditchable weight (if any).  When
you
>> > ditch
>> > > > > > > >> your weight you don't want to become so positive as to end
up
>> > in
>> > > > > > > >> lunar orbit.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> I would like to get as close to hogarthian as possible
before
>> > > > moving
>> > > > > > > >> to doubles, so any help is appreciated.  I'm even moving
my
>> > > > canister
>> > > > > > > >> back on my harness (I had it upside down and attached to
the
>> > > > > > > >> backplate, but I find that it has a tendency to sit on the
>> > wiring
>> > > > > > > >> connection...not good).
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Cheers,
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> --
>> > > > > > > >> Paul Braunbehrens mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*
>> > > > > > > >> http://www.daw-mac.com Mailing list for digital audio on
the
>> > mac
>> > > > > > > >> --
>> > > > > > > >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
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