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First of all, I don't think anyone is saying that supply and demand are n= ot at work here. My point is that what is being demanded is not what we need because the diving public is ill/missinformed. I totally agree with your points one and two and I don't favor a governme= nt assigned examiner, in part because of the same reasons you mentioned in y= our closing paragraph. Other professions don't seem to have the same problem as diving, as far a= s the selection process for their members. For example, the accounting profess= ion is examined by a seperate non-government body that is independent of the groups that prepare people for the C.P.A. exam. I think Engineers and Attorneys have a similar process. Although the examining body may be recognized by the government. There are plenty of engineers and attorney= s on the list that can correct me on this if necessary. Now, as I am sure som= eone will point out, the feasibility of the implementation of this is another story. The scary thing is the current state of the industry is what is most like= ly to be used as a standard. The current state of the industry is what we are wanting to improve upon. This means that the RSTC standards, or somethin= g that approximates them, would most likely be used. Then it would be more= difficult, if not impossible, for someone to come along and do what has b= een done like at GUE. More importantly, I think that the quality of diver training would be bet= ter if the retail sales function were seperated from training. This would eliminate another conflict of interest that is paramount in this business= =2E = Although it will be interesting to see what happens here now that there i= s an equipment manufacturer and training agency that are producing products an= d training that are consistent with each others application. Mike "dmdalton" <dmdalton@qu*.ne*> wrote: Kevin, Mike and the list, Actually supply and demand are alive and well here! This phenomenon is encapsulated in a economic theory I formulated after years of trying to make money from various activities that I enjoyed. Tha= t theory is called "Dalton's Law of Stupid Supply" (not related to Dalton'= s Law of Partial Pressures). This law states "There is no end to the number= of stupid people standing in line trying to make a dollar doing something th= at they think is fun and will to do it for an ever decreasing amount of mone= y. How little money they will accept is inversely proportional to how much f= un they think the activity is and how much their ego is inflated by participating in this activity." This isn't limited to the dive industry. When I was skiing and taking instruction in Vermont in the mid 70's, every ski instructor I met only d= id it to get time on the slopes and made next to nothing at it. Does ski-bum= ring a bell? Which, it follows is why supply & demand are causing the low prices for d= ive classes and the ever lowering of the hurdle to become a certified diver. = Too large of supply of diving instructors for the demand of their service.If there were only 10 diving instructors in all of FL you could easily get $2000-3000 to learn to dive. Instead, in some areas of FL dive shops are more prevalent than gas stations and it has become (I am told) the home o= f the $99 dive course. When I taught diving in the Washington DC area (73-80) shops paid instructors $40 per student in a class of 10 students. There were no divemasters or assistant instructors, but if you had a buddy or a former student that was looking to get some extra dive time in you gave them a f= ree air fill and got help for free. My son was certified 3 years ago by a fri= end of mine. I asked him what he got and he said $40 a student, but then he p= ays a couple of assistant instructors or divemasters $20 a day (X 2 days) to help with the check out dives. This fellow works for me on a government contract at a rate of ~ $30 hour. He said because of the extra time he usually puts in to help his students, if he made the same rate teaching diving he would make $3000-4000 per OW class. Two problems 1) Everyone I have ever known who took lessons and became a diver has fanaticized (maybe only in secret) about making money at doing this. 2) There is no controlling authority that tests and certifies you, that doesn't have a monetary stake in whether or not you make the grade (does "conflict of interest" ring a bell?). Compare learning to fly (which costs $2500- $4000). First you must spend = at least (I believe) 10 hours dual time with instructor for which the instructor is paid $20 + an hour (would be higher but this is too much fu= n and the instructor is booking hours for his commercial ticket - like my brother is doing right now). Then, if you are really good you can solo - = but most will need more dual time. Then you put in some more time until you clock minimum of 40 hrs stick time - but national average is more like 50-60. Some of this time is again with the instructor at $20 +. After you= can do everything you schedule your test flight with the FAA rep who coul= d care less if you pass or fail. He gets a government salary either way - i= n fact if he fails you he thinks he is protecting society from you (which h= e is). Although I hate the idea of more government control, I think maybe the recreational diving industry needs a similar type of procedure to insure that the instruction truly meets the need. I don't really like the government doing it since they usually make matters worse. Also the threa= t to unsafe diving practices is solely to one's self, not the public at lar= ge and the end result of passing legislation designed to save fools from the= ir folly, is to populate the world with fools. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Connell <kevin@nw*.co*> To: Mike Gault <gaultmike@ne*.ne*> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [RE: [RE: Is there a thing like inofficial training? was Re:= Bonda ge Wi ngs]] > At 05:25 PM 3/14/2000 -0600, John Gault's Evil Twin Brother wrote: > > >As for unprofitability, the problem is that the general public(consume= rs) > >determine this to a great extent and there is definitely no controllin= g > >consumers. Many have gone bankrupt attempting this. > > Yes, the diving industry alone is the only place on the planet > where supply and demand don't determine price. The more likely > explanation is dive facilities go bankrupt because they don't understan= d > the basic rules of economics in a competitive environment. > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > Kevin Connell <kevin@nw*.co*> > > NW Labor Systems, Inc > http://www.nwls.com > > Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest. > (A thing is only worth what someone else > is willing to pay for it) > > ---------------------------------- > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.= > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'= =2E > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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