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Mike, > First of all, I don't think anyone is saying that supply and demand are not at > work here. My point is that what is being demanded is not what we need > because the diving public is ill/missinformed. I agree, however I don't think you will find educated consurmers comming into any recreational activity. After they are in it, yes. But not at the start, they don't know what they don't know. > Other professions don't seem to have the same problem as diving, as far as the > selection process for their members. For example, the accounting profession > is examined by a seperate non-government body that is independent of the > groups that prepare people for the C.P.A. exam. I think Engineers and > Attorneys have a similar process. Although the examining body may be > recognized by the government. There are plenty of engineers and attorneys on > the list that can correct me on this if necessary. Now, as I am sure someone > will point out, the feasibility of the implementation of this is another > story. Agree completely. This would be great. Only difference is that I don't know anyone who took accounting and said "Gee whiz this is fun. I wish I could make a living at this!" I said "This is is boring, I sure am glad that I only need 6 semester hours in accounting for my BSBA!" Like you said implementation is the problem. The dive comunity is too small to be able to set up an objective review board. I am sure that you don't have anyone grading the CPA exam or the Bar exam saying, "Shucks, this guy don't know squat but Dean Hailstones at Xavier University was his prof, guess we better let him slide on by our standards." Just like the FAA, they could care less. > The scary thing is the current state of the industry is what is most likely to > be used as a standard. The current state of the industry is what we are > wanting to improve upon. This means that the RSTC standards, or something > that approximates them, would most likely be used. Then it would be more > difficult, if not impossible, for someone to come along and do what has been > done like at GUE. Agree/disagree. Agree that we want to improve upon the standard and that the current one stinks. GUE (whom I applaud loudly and support fully) or someone else will always be able to offer higher quality courses and those seeking value from their $ will seek them out. How many will take this route is another question. > More importantly, I think that the quality of diver training would be better > if the retail sales function were seperated from training. This would > eliminate another conflict of interest that is paramount in this business. > Although it will be interesting to see what happens here now that there is an > equipment manufacturer and training agency that are producing products and > training that are consistent with each others application. Different perspective - I don't have a problem with the training & retailing being linked. I have a problem with the certification process being linked to either the retailing or the traing. Flight instruction is very commercial but you can be sure that what they are selling in the way of books, charts gagets and gizmos better help you make the grade because if you drop $2500-$4000 on a course and do everything they tell you and they say you are ready and then the FAA inspector fails you miserably you won't be a happy camper and ultimately reputation will put you out of business. In that industry there is a lot of competion especially for the ground school courses that guarantee you will pass the written or come back and go through it again at no charge. You wouldn't have the offeror of the $99 scuba course make that offer if there was an independent certification process. Nor would the instructor sell the student gear that was substandard or inhibit performance if his goal is to insure that the student passed the independant certification process. Dave > > > "dmdalton" <dmdalton@qu*.ne*> wrote: > Kevin, Mike and the list, > > Actually supply and demand are alive and well here! > > This phenomenon is encapsulated in a economic theory I formulated after > years of trying to make money from various activities that I enjoyed. That > theory is called "Dalton's Law of Stupid Supply" (not related to Dalton's > Law of Partial Pressures). This law states "There is no end to the number of > stupid people standing in line trying to make a dollar doing something that > they think is fun and will to do it for an ever decreasing amount of money. > How little money they will accept is inversely proportional to how much fun > they think the activity is and how much their ego is inflated by > participating in this activity." > > This isn't limited to the dive industry. When I was skiing and taking > instruction in Vermont in the mid 70's, every ski instructor I met only did > it to get time on the slopes and made next to nothing at it. Does ski-bum > ring a bell? > > Which, it follows is why supply & demand are causing the low prices for dive > classes and the ever lowering of the hurdle to become a certified diver. Too > large of supply of diving instructors for the demand of their service.If > there were only 10 diving instructors in all of FL you could easily get > $2000-3000 to learn to dive. Instead, in some areas of FL dive shops are > more prevalent than gas stations and it has become (I am told) the home of > the $99 dive course. > > When I taught diving in the Washington DC area (73-80) shops paid > instructors $40 per student in a class of 10 students. There were no > divemasters or assistant instructors, but if you had a buddy or a former > student that was looking to get some extra dive time in you gave them a free > air fill and got help for free. My son was certified 3 years ago by a friend > of mine. I asked him what he got and he said $40 a student, but then he pays > a couple of assistant instructors or divemasters $20 a day (X 2 days) to > help with the check out dives. This fellow works for me on a government > contract at a rate of ~ $30 hour. He said because of the extra time he > usually puts in to help his students, if he made the same rate teaching > diving he would make $3000-4000 per OW class. > > Two problems > > 1) Everyone I have ever known who took lessons and became a diver has > fanaticized (maybe only in secret) about making money at doing this. > > 2) There is no controlling authority that tests and certifies you, that > doesn't have a monetary stake in whether or not you make the grade (does > "conflict of interest" ring a bell?). > > Compare learning to fly (which costs $2500- $4000). First you must spend at > least (I believe) 10 hours dual time with instructor for which the > instructor is paid $20 + an hour (would be higher but this is too much fun > and the instructor is booking hours for his commercial ticket - like my > brother is doing right now). Then, if you are really good you can solo - but > most will need more dual time. Then you put in some more time until you > clock minimum of 40 hrs stick time - but national average is more like > 50-60. Some of this time is again with the instructor at $20 +. After you > can do everything you schedule your test flight with the FAA rep who could > care less if you pass or fail. He gets a government salary either way - in > fact if he fails you he thinks he is protecting society from you (which he > is). > > Although I hate the idea of more government control, I think maybe the > recreational diving industry needs a similar type of procedure to insure > that the instruction truly meets the need. I don't really like the > government doing it since they usually make matters worse. Also the threat > to unsafe diving practices is solely to one's self, not the public at large > and the end result of passing legislation designed to save fools from their > folly, is to populate the world with fools. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Connell <kevin@nw*.co*> > To: Mike Gault <gaultmike@ne*.ne*> > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 8:33 AM > Subject: Re: [RE: [RE: Is there a thing like inofficial training? was Re: > Bonda ge Wi ngs]] > > > > At 05:25 PM 3/14/2000 -0600, John Gault's Evil Twin Brother wrote: > > > > >As for unprofitability, the problem is that the general public(consumers) > > >determine this to a great extent and there is definitely no controlling > > >consumers. Many have gone bankrupt attempting this. > > > > Yes, the diving industry alone is the only place on the planet > > where supply and demand don't determine price. The more likely > > explanation is dive facilities go bankrupt because they don't understand > > the basic rules of economics in a competitive environment. > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > Kevin Connell <kevin@nw*.co*> > > > > NW Labor Systems, Inc > > http://www.nwls.com > > > > Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest. > > (A thing is only worth what someone else > > is willing to pay for it) > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > -- > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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