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Claudia, For liability you need negligence which has four components: duty,breach,causation and damages. I think without training no duty can be established,thus no negligence. I dont think you can get to liability through an attractive nusiance or a strict liability theory like for explosives or swimming pools to apply to cave diving. but feel free to try. For moral issues, i think every instructor owes a moral duty to teach the student to test her limit very carefully and to not inspire the student in that extreme dives are goals or praiseworthy accomplishments. My ow instructor mentioned the doria on the first night, and even thought it was meant as a counter example i think it may have created a subconscious goal for me. Better to teach that common sense means diving sanely, or as that annoyingly patronizing, rude, deep air diving son of a bitch Ling says" know your limits and dive within them". Unfortunately common sense is *very* difficult to teach. regards, AJM PS above is not intended to serve as legal counsel or advice and is not the practice of law, but rather simple commentary on basic legal principles. If you need legal counsel seek the services of an attorney in person. best-AJM Claudia Milz wrote: > Just kicking off a discussion - > > A diver with "intro to cave" cert is scootering back in a cave, > doubles on. This is not covered with his formal training. > For what he was doing, he would have needed cave3 with GUE, or a > scooter specialty on top of full cave. > > True, this is far away from each other. He could have just gotten the > intro cert, average talented diver, *wrong gear*, average fitness, > and the panicking hints that there was a huge lack of experience and > therefore, an inability to make the right decisions (at that point, > it was too late to find out that some dives are not so easy). > > But indeed, the lack of the right cert doesn't tell you a whole lot. > Ehem, how many people have all the formal training they would > officially need for their diving? > I.e. a PADI diver without a "deep diver" cert isn't supposed to go > deeper than 100'/30m. Which is a very good idea regarding narcosis. > But who sticks to that? It is more than common practice to dive > deeper than 60'/18m after the open water training. The chick (it > really was one) with the poorest health who barely made it through > the PADI exam (!!!) went to the Red Sea the weekend afterwards and > did 100'+ dives. Another girl had made her cert on vacation and died > on her 6th dive in cold low viz water, 110' deep. > > Maybe people are in general more careful when it comes to technical, > esp. cave diving. But, some people find technical training overly > expensive and play around with gear, deco and whatever without any > clue. This is stupid to say the least, but it seems to be accepted, > as long as nothing happens. > > So we have 3 cases: > a) formal training first, dives to gain experience > b) S#!+ on training > c) informal training > > To make a long story short, how is c) regarded in the community? > The prospective student shows the talent, mindset, etc, and knows his > gear. Now an experienced diver *trains* him. The student is very > good, doesn't have a problem, maybe shortcuts a bit. > > What if > 1) something does happen on an 'inofficial' dive, even if > formal training wouldn't have made a big difference. > > 2) everything's fine, the former student wants to do dives like > this scooter dive in a cave, has knowledge and ability and - there > are people who wouldn't let him, since he lacks the cert. > > What does the list think of liabilities and the moral > responsibilities here? > > Thanks, and have a great weekend. > > Claudia > > > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:40:06 -0600 > > To: cavers@ca*.co* > > From: Grady Richardson <grichardson@wo*.at*.ne*> > > Subject: Re: Bondage Wings > > > Like Dan and Lance and George said, it wasn't the bondage wings or > > scootering that did the guy in, it was the mind set that did him in. The > > wings and the scooter were the outward appearances of his attitude. > > > > They were going "too far, too fast". They were taking giant strides with > > their experiance instead of small incrimental steps. This goes back to mind > > set and attitude. > > > > Divers are taught in OW1 to dive within their limits (read training).Their > > mind set allowed them dive way beyind their training. If they had more > > experiance, maybe they wouldn't have been in such a situation in the first > > place. > > > > Grady > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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