sarah smith wrote:
> 
> Bill -
> 
> I'm sorry to hear that you had a less than desirable
> experience at Fifth Dimension.  I have been a customer
> of 5th D for over 3 years now, and have been
> overwhelmingly happy with their staff, their equipment
> and most of all... the training I have received there.

I got the same info from another person at another dive shop in
Hoodsport, near where I live.
I drove 2 hours through some of the worst traffic I have ever been in to
find the place, only 
to be completely dissapointed. Is my opinion and my feelings invalid,
because you say so?
 
> It appears from your postings that you had a chip on
> your shoulder about 5th D. prior to going into their
> store.  Sure sounds lik you went IN looking for
> something wrong and bad to report to the e-mail list!

Absolutely untrue. I went in there looking for a light shining in the
darkness, 
and I found only more of the same. After Andrews childish response, and
his calling me 
liar, I doubt very seriously that he and I will have much of a future.
He seems to me 
to be a hothead and a bully. And, I am sure, Andrew isnt going to lose
any sleep.

> And you got something less (than the website "implied"
> to you?) than you expected... So, you decided to take
> it upon yourself to set andrew and his store straight,
> by slamming them on an e-mail list serve - not quite
> public but close enough.  please... how mature is
> that?

I stated my opinion, as is my right, and you call it slamming. Look, its
just possible 
that every word I said was true. I came in, they blew me out. FACT. Why
is it OK for Andrew to slam me
by calling me a liar, and then when I post info to refute his
accusation, I get a ton of nasty e-mails
from his clique. I am changing my e-mail address, and unsubscribing from
the techlist. No one needs 
this kind of harrassment and abuse.

> your original post was nothing short of inflammatory
> in nature and tone.  Your potentially valid concerns
> and questions were lost in the aggressive tone you
> took as you tried to set andrew straight.

You are making a lot of assumptions, and erroneous conclusions. You wish
to defend Andrew and his store
against what you see as an unwarranted attack. It was not an attack, and
it was not unwarranted. How dare you,
or anyone from that place take issue with me for aggressive or
inflammatory tone after I have seen *many*
childish and inflammatory posts by Andrew himself to techdiver. He is
above the law and rules of common decency, yet they apply to anyone who
would take issue with him or the facility. More like a cult, is my
opinion. Worship Andrew as you will, I will not.

> i hope that you will lose YOUR attitude, and come to
> learn what 5th D is really about.  To start by judging
> this store on it's physical location and parking lot
> size, and store display, is a text-book definition of
> narrow mindedness.

Look, Andrew called me a liar. I described his store so that he could
know that I *was* there, and not lying.
And, to be honest, I had a real hard time parking, and getting out of
his parking lot. This is true, but not complimentary. I would say that
your attitude is narrow minded as well. You see the store as the end
all/be all. I simply do not. I went in there with no attitude, but sure
left with an impression that was not so flattering. FWIW, I have
recieved a bunch of nasty, threatening e-mails (and I mean
*threatening*), only bolstering my opinion that I want nothing more to
do with the place. Your is the most polite of all messages reveived, and
to be honest, more of the same. Why is it not possible to you people
that I had a bad experience there, simply because you have not. Are
these people perfect? I have to say absolutely not. And, since I dared
to post a non complimentary message, I have basically been ganged up on.
NOT ONE e-mail I received was even close to conciliatory, all, including
yours, insultory or threatening or both. Andrew is your leader, and you
all seem to follow his example of maturity closely.

> If you had a valid complaint about how your request
> for GUE information was taken at 5th D. you should
> have CALLED or PERSONALLY contacted Andrew. He's the
> owner, not to mention the guy who teaches the GUE
> courses.  Are you sure you made your diving education
> intention clear?  did you ask to see Andrew?  did you
> specifically ask about GUE training and share your
> background?  This could have helped the staff member
> answer your inquiry better.

I did all these things, Andrew wasnt in the store. I specifically went
there to see him.
I was recommended to him by another individual, "Scott", who works at
another shop Hoodsport, and whom
I only know from e-mail, and becuase "Scott" not only invited me to come
dive with him, for free, but unreservedly recommended that I talk to
Andrew about GUE training. He gave me directions to 5th D.I dont see any
of you reccomending any other shops. I have seen no one from 5th D do
anything but chest pounding, name calling and self aggrandizement. Also,
to most of *you* no complaint or issue is valid. Simply not possible.
 
> And to accuse them of baiting and switching (now
> there's a slanderous statement if I ever heard one!)
> because they teach NORMAL openwater classes (does GUE
> offer any entry level training?), and sell "stroke"
> gear (not EVERYONE needs a ss backplate and harness!)
> is ridiculous at best.

I didnt invent the word "stroke". These people apply it to all and
sundry, to anyone who dares to question,
offer criticism, or ask questions. I had no basis for conclusion when I
went in there, now I do. Bait and switch is a common tactic amongst
retailers, and also a very grey area. I went in there looking for
Halcyon 
gear, GUE training, and got pushed towards more lower level training
than I already have, and gear of lower quality than what I already own.
Almost impossible to prove, but it looked, tasted and smelled like bait
and switch to me.

> You slam 5th Dimension and consequently... you insult
> their customers.  And I took offense to that, because
> I think they're taking an undeserved bashing. So I now
> share MY opionions with you.

Your opinions are yours. Mine are mine. And no less valid than yours.
If you choose to take offense, so be it. That was not my intent.
I think it is you who has a chip on her shoulder.

> I own and dive both "stroke" gear and "dir" gear -
> both are used for their appropriate diving situations.
> I dive an adopted DIR "attitude" along with my "stroke
> gear" and dive safer and better because of it.  THAT I
> learned through 5th Dimension and classes from Andrew,
> Not through an actual GUE course but through my
> "stroke" courses I've taken so far.  Now, after all
> that "stroke" training and learning, I am ready to
> take a GUE level course.  How could I have gotten
> there without being a "stroke" in your opinion? I
> would be a true "stroke" if I didn't WANT to learn
> more and wasn't open minded enough to do so.

So, because I looked to them for training beyond what I already have,
NAUI, PADI, IANTD,
but dared to post the truth about my feelings, I am being bashed. And
this is fair or right?
Why on Earth would I want to take a lower level SSI class, just to
*prove* to anyone that I am
"worthy" of GUE training? Pure baloney. Simply another tactic to fleece
customers.

> i hope that you will get a chance to meet andrew and
> really see the store for what it is.  An excellent
> training facility filled with people who, although
> human and make mistakes just like anyone, are
> knowledgeable, and some of the best diving resources
> you will find anywhere.  All this despite their
> location, parking lot size, human staff and small
> displays... wow.

Look, what I posted were facts. It has nothing to do with anything but
the truth.
Sorry you and they seem unable to accept, though you admit, that they
have a small
place, a horrible parking lot, snobby attitude, and very little of what
I would consider 
DIR gear on display. Just more of the same. And, since I have been
basically ganged up on 
for posting the truth about my opinion, and my experience at this store,
it only makes me 
want to stay further away.

Andrew, you, and the rest of the 5th D gangsters have made my decision
easy:

I will keep looking. I found *nothing* in this store that set it apart
from any others in the area, except that other stores have not filled my
mailbox with nasty letters and threats.
What I have found is basically a gang mentality, and your letter, Sarah,
is just more of the same.

Here are a couple snips from other messages I received, none of which
were posted publicly (cowards);

"Dont bother trying to pull your head out, go dive with Weinberg, you'll
get the shit training and 
rip off you deserve. Weinberg loves dickheads like you."

"Andrew can call you anything he likes. You are a stroke, a pussy, a
liar, and an asshole."

"Just show up at Les Davies any weekend and run your mouth, and I will
shut it for you."

Sounds like a great group of people. You dont have to worry about
meeting me anywhere, at any time.

I'll not bother you fine folks further.

Bill
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