Bill,

I don't know how this got so far out of shape here, but I recommended that
you talk to Andrew for
very good reasons. I have done a bit of business with Andrew, and, if you
were on hand for his Britannic
exhibition, you know what kind of diver he is. Whoever/whatever it was down
at 5th D that pissed in your cheerio's, must have been a *solid*
misunderstanding, as these are great folks.

Drop back, take a couple deep breaths, and think it over. If you ever make
it down to our shop, you will see that its about 1/2 the size if AG's place,
but we have *lots* of parking <BFG> We are small, but we got heart.
Andrews shop is downtown, and come with all the problems associated with
that. I have never heard *anyone* have a bad word to say about 5th D until
now.

Whoever sent the threats to you is a dickhead, under any circumstances.
Tacky, childish, and cowardly, and certainly not doing anything to help the
situation.

Really, Bill, these are great people, I think this whole thing just got
going down the wrong road, on the wrong foot.

Come on gang, cant we all just get along....<ducking and running>

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Anderson" <banders@hc*.co*>
To: "sarah smith" <diver9_2000@ya*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Scott"
<scottk@hc*.co*>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: 5th D. Customer opinion


>
>
> sarah smith wrote:
> >
> > Bill -
> >
> > I'm sorry to hear that you had a less than desirable
> > experience at Fifth Dimension.  I have been a customer
> > of 5th D for over 3 years now, and have been
> > overwhelmingly happy with their staff, their equipment
> > and most of all... the training I have received there.
>
> I got the same info from another person at another dive shop in
> Hoodsport, near where I live.
> I drove 2 hours through some of the worst traffic I have ever been in to
> find the place, only
> to be completely dissapointed. Is my opinion and my feelings invalid,
> because you say so?
>
> > It appears from your postings that you had a chip on
> > your shoulder about 5th D. prior to going into their
> > store.  Sure sounds lik you went IN looking for
> > something wrong and bad to report to the e-mail list!
>
> Absolutely untrue. I went in there looking for a light shining in the
> darkness,
> and I found only more of the same. After Andrews childish response, and
> his calling me
> liar, I doubt very seriously that he and I will have much of a future.
> He seems to me
> to be a hothead and a bully. And, I am sure, Andrew isnt going to lose
> any sleep.
>
> > And you got something less (than the website "implied"
> > to you?) than you expected... So, you decided to take
> > it upon yourself to set andrew and his store straight,
> > by slamming them on an e-mail list serve - not quite
> > public but close enough.  please... how mature is
> > that?
>
> I stated my opinion, as is my right, and you call it slamming. Look, its
> just possible
> that every word I said was true. I came in, they blew me out. FACT. Why
> is it OK for Andrew to slam me
> by calling me a liar, and then when I post info to refute his
> accusation, I get a ton of nasty e-mails
> from his clique. I am changing my e-mail address, and unsubscribing from
> the techlist. No one needs
> this kind of harrassment and abuse.
>
> > your original post was nothing short of inflammatory
> > in nature and tone.  Your potentially valid concerns
> > and questions were lost in the aggressive tone you
> > took as you tried to set andrew straight.
>
> You are making a lot of assumptions, and erroneous conclusions. You wish
> to defend Andrew and his store
> against what you see as an unwarranted attack. It was not an attack, and
> it was not unwarranted. How dare you,
> or anyone from that place take issue with me for aggressive or
> inflammatory tone after I have seen *many*
> childish and inflammatory posts by Andrew himself to techdiver. He is
> above the law and rules of common decency, yet they apply to anyone who
> would take issue with him or the facility. More like a cult, is my
> opinion. Worship Andrew as you will, I will not.
>
> > i hope that you will lose YOUR attitude, and come to
> > learn what 5th D is really about.  To start by judging
> > this store on it's physical location and parking lot
> > size, and store display, is a text-book definition of
> > narrow mindedness.
>
> Look, Andrew called me a liar. I described his store so that he could
> know that I *was* there, and not lying.
> And, to be honest, I had a real hard time parking, and getting out of
> his parking lot. This is true, but not complimentary. I would say that
> your attitude is narrow minded as well. You see the store as the end
> all/be all. I simply do not. I went in there with no attitude, but sure
> left with an impression that was not so flattering. FWIW, I have
> recieved a bunch of nasty, threatening e-mails (and I mean
> *threatening*), only bolstering my opinion that I want nothing more to
> do with the place. Your is the most polite of all messages reveived, and
> to be honest, more of the same. Why is it not possible to you people
> that I had a bad experience there, simply because you have not. Are
> these people perfect? I have to say absolutely not. And, since I dared
> to post a non complimentary message, I have basically been ganged up on.
> NOT ONE e-mail I received was even close to conciliatory, all, including
> yours, insultory or threatening or both. Andrew is your leader, and you
> all seem to follow his example of maturity closely.
>
> > If you had a valid complaint about how your request
> > for GUE information was taken at 5th D. you should
> > have CALLED or PERSONALLY contacted Andrew. He's the
> > owner, not to mention the guy who teaches the GUE
> > courses.  Are you sure you made your diving education
> > intention clear?  did you ask to see Andrew?  did you
> > specifically ask about GUE training and share your
> > background?  This could have helped the staff member
> > answer your inquiry better.
>
> I did all these things, Andrew wasnt in the store. I specifically went
> there to see him.
> I was recommended to him by another individual, "Scott", who works at
> another shop Hoodsport, and whom
> I only know from e-mail, and becuase "Scott" not only invited me to come
> dive with him, for free, but unreservedly recommended that I talk to
> Andrew about GUE training. He gave me directions to 5th D.I dont see any
> of you reccomending any other shops. I have seen no one from 5th D do
> anything but chest pounding, name calling and self aggrandizement. Also,
> to most of *you* no complaint or issue is valid. Simply not possible.
>
> > And to accuse them of baiting and switching (now
> > there's a slanderous statement if I ever heard one!)
> > because they teach NORMAL openwater classes (does GUE
> > offer any entry level training?), and sell "stroke"
> > gear (not EVERYONE needs a ss backplate and harness!)
> > is ridiculous at best.
>
> I didnt invent the word "stroke". These people apply it to all and
> sundry, to anyone who dares to question,
> offer criticism, or ask questions. I had no basis for conclusion when I
> went in there, now I do. Bait and switch is a common tactic amongst
> retailers, and also a very grey area. I went in there looking for
> Halcyon
> gear, GUE training, and got pushed towards more lower level training
> than I already have, and gear of lower quality than what I already own.
> Almost impossible to prove, but it looked, tasted and smelled like bait
> and switch to me.
>
> > You slam 5th Dimension and consequently... you insult
> > their customers.  And I took offense to that, because
> > I think they're taking an undeserved bashing. So I now
> > share MY opionions with you.
>
> Your opinions are yours. Mine are mine. And no less valid than yours.
> If you choose to take offense, so be it. That was not my intent.
> I think it is you who has a chip on her shoulder.
>
> > I own and dive both "stroke" gear and "dir" gear -
> > both are used for their appropriate diving situations.
> > I dive an adopted DIR "attitude" along with my "stroke
> > gear" and dive safer and better because of it.  THAT I
> > learned through 5th Dimension and classes from Andrew,
> > Not through an actual GUE course but through my
> > "stroke" courses I've taken so far.  Now, after all
> > that "stroke" training and learning, I am ready to
> > take a GUE level course.  How could I have gotten
> > there without being a "stroke" in your opinion? I
> > would be a true "stroke" if I didn't WANT to learn
> > more and wasn't open minded enough to do so.
>
> So, because I looked to them for training beyond what I already have,
> NAUI, PADI, IANTD,
> but dared to post the truth about my feelings, I am being bashed. And
> this is fair or right?
> Why on Earth would I want to take a lower level SSI class, just to
> *prove* to anyone that I am
> "worthy" of GUE training? Pure baloney. Simply another tactic to fleece
> customers.
>
> > i hope that you will get a chance to meet andrew and
> > really see the store for what it is.  An excellent
> > training facility filled with people who, although
> > human and make mistakes just like anyone, are
> > knowledgeable, and some of the best diving resources
> > you will find anywhere.  All this despite their
> > location, parking lot size, human staff and small
> > displays... wow.
>
> Look, what I posted were facts. It has nothing to do with anything but
> the truth.
> Sorry you and they seem unable to accept, though you admit, that they
> have a small
> place, a horrible parking lot, snobby attitude, and very little of what
> I would consider
> DIR gear on display. Just more of the same. And, since I have been
> basically ganged up on
> for posting the truth about my opinion, and my experience at this store,
> it only makes me
> want to stay further away.
>
> Andrew, you, and the rest of the 5th D gangsters have made my decision
> easy:
>
> I will keep looking. I found *nothing* in this store that set it apart
> from any others in the area, except that other stores have not filled my
> mailbox with nasty letters and threats.
> What I have found is basically a gang mentality, and your letter, Sarah,
> is just more of the same.
>
> Here are a couple snips from other messages I received, none of which
> were posted publicly (cowards);
>
> "Dont bother trying to pull your head out, go dive with Weinberg, you'll
> get the shit training and
> rip off you deserve. Weinberg loves dickheads like you."
>
> "Andrew can call you anything he likes. You are a stroke, a pussy, a
> liar, and an asshole."
>
> "Just show up at Les Davies any weekend and run your mouth, and I will
> shut it for you."
>
> Sounds like a great group of people. You dont have to worry about
> meeting me anywhere, at any time.
>
> I'll not bother you fine folks further.
>
> Bill
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