Joe,

	I hate to bag you buddy, but first off you have the wrong Scott. The
one advertising all of the PhD's was the ScottBonis@ao*.co*. Second, just
because she doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that she is wrong. As for
PADI training, she is not alone in criticizing it. How about the two divers
with PADI training and less than 20 dives between them doing a night dive at
over 100' and run out of gas. This was this past year in Washington state.
One is dead, the other had a nice AGE due to a crash ascent. Their training
really paid off didn't it? This isn't the only incident. There are many more
that involve depths that a beginning diver should be at. If you don't
believe this, ask DAN. They accumulate the statistics. Maybe if the training
agencies hear enough real life negatives, then maybe they will wake up and
try to get better. If nobody says anything, then nothing will ever change.

	Don

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:Joe.West@fu*.ca*]
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 10:42 AM
To: 'Scott'; 'techdiver@aquanaut.com'
Subject: RE: Claudia, Claudia, Claudia, <sigh> Was FW: FW: Cave training


Scott,

Scott,

While I'm not absolutely positive, I'd say that Claudia can stick up for
herself, and that your comments are just a bit outdated, especially in this
forum.  Having said that, I am completely unimpressed with anyone who makes
comments which are patently untrue, *especially* when they have a Ph.D and
should know better.
Titles don't impress me Scott, certifications don't impress me... but people
who stick to the facts, and state them well; do.

As for your comment about PADI getting bashed because they deserve it...
sometimes yes, sometimes no.  In this case, the answer is a resounding no.
As for lessions... try to remember that gross generalities are generally a
sign of a lack of education; try to stay away from them.

Cheers,


Joe F. West
98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
http://members.home.com/joewest2/
(Okay... so I lied) <grin>


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott [mailto:scottk@hc*.co*]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 8:14 PM
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: Claudia, Claudia, Claudia, <sigh> Was FW: FW: Cave training


Hey, Joe.

Claudia is certified full cave. Has all the PADI bullshit. Has been
accepted, and is starting GUE training this month.
She is German and there might be a *little* misunderstanding, on *your*
part. PADI gets bashed because they deserve it.

Having said that, your "response" is really tacky. If you have a point to
make, make it with a little class. She is a lady, and you *should* be a
gentleman. You are falling short of your obligation. Are you hip?

Now, remember back when you were in Kindergarten, they taught you how to act
like a big boy?

Try it. If you cant act like a big boy, and treat the ladies with common
decency, S2.   =:-

Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: Joe West <Joe.West@fu*.ca*>
To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 1:41 PM
Subject: Claudia, Claudia, Claudia, <sigh> Was FW: FW: Cave training


> Okay... if you're going to spout off about something you know nothing
about,
> at least try be accurate.  PADI has enough of a bad rap around here
> (sometimes for good reason) without people spouting off bullshit which
isn't
> even close to the truth.
>
> PADI calls it Cavern diving, The specialty card has "Cavern" on it
(nowhere
> does it say cave). the word "Cave" is mentioned in the specialty course
only
> to specifically describe to the student that Cavern *does not* equal Cave.
> How about I just put a few quotes from the trainers manual:
>
> "Cavern diving is defined as any dive conducted within the light zone of a
> cave.  Cave diving is any dive conducted beyond the light zone of a cave.
> The light zone of a cave is defined as that part of the cave from which
> natural light illuminating the entrance is visible at all times"
>
> Granted... this is far from a perfect description, but I think it get's
the
> point across to any diver with an IQ greater than 50.
>
> Furthermore, as an additional safety measure (for the idiots who didn't
> understand the above statement) the instructor's manual goes on to say:
>
> "This course covers the knowledge and techniques of cavern diving and
> describes the dangers involved with cave diving.  Cavern diving is in NO
WAY
> intended to provide instruction for cave diving"
>
> Care to backup your statements below with some concrete examples Claudia?
> If not, then stick to the truth or (if I might borrow from George's
> techniques).. STFU
> <grin>
>
> Joe F. West
> 98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
> http://members.home.com/joewest2/
> (Okay... so I lied) <grin>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Claudia Milz [mailto:cmilz@Mi*.ED*]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 1:56 AM
> To: Mcinnis, Don
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: Re: FW: Cave training
>
>
> Don,
>
> > By the way, doesn't PADI sell a Cave C card as well?
> Geez, no. That is cavern - they just call it cave since that sells
> better. I find that pretty dangerous to say the least.
>
> Claudia
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