Mailing List Archive Mailing List Archive
Rich Lesperance wrote: > Thomas, > > Nice try. > > >>> If you are serious about what to do on dive trips that go bad, take an > EMT > > class.<snip> . > > > > Barring that take at least a CPR class and ask the instructors about your > > specific situations. > > Been in the emergency medical field for 7+ years. NREMT-P, DMT, a bunch > of other stuff I don't want to have to explain. Not only that, I _taught_ it > also. > > I am not working as a paramedic, so I am not bound by lowest-common > denominator protocols, designed to simplify decision-making processes at the > cost of removing options. You bring up a good point. While I am work I *am* bound by lowest common denominator protocols, which remove options as you say. On the boat I am not. And so for you, me and some other trained and experienced people, we not can do things differently, we can talk about it too. But this is a public list. This year I have been diving on three continents, and have met many divers who subscribe to this list. Their diving abilities range from expert to hazard. What do you think the lowest common denominator with regard to resuscitation is on this list? My point is that CPR training would be a great step UP for most. Leaving it as 'use the purge' is bad news. > One of Murphy's Laws is : "If it's stupid, but it works, it isn't > stupid....". I would much rather hear from an anesthesiologist who confirms > this procedure works, then from EMTs who are relying on formulaic training & > standing protocols they have received, and are legally bound by. That is you. You know what your are doing. You have training and experience that most will never have. > If in case you didn't know, anesthesiologists are pretty well-read on > the whole ventilation subject. I think I made that point. Nice try at sarcasm. > I am not concerned with what looks nice, or what is approved by local > EMS protocols, or a CPR class (fer chrissake!). I am concerned with what > works in real life, and my question has been courteously answered by a > subject-matter expert. > > This technique is simply one I will add to my bag of tricks, hoping I'll > never need to do it, but aware of it should the need occur. Tell me, when it is YOU lying apneic and pulseless on the deck, and the only other people there to help you are tech divers who have Ph Ds in economics, do you want their bag of tricks to consist soley of purging you with deco gas? Good luck. I'd rather they did good basic effective CPR, using a pocket mask, while they breathe off the deco gas. > If I am on shore, and have proper recussitive equipment, will I use the > reg? Of course not! And I don't believe _anyone_ is saying to do that. Wrong. Alot of people are saying to do that. Alot of people are not us. And why can;t we have a tube kit on the boat? Or an EMT who can use other kit? That is what I am saying. Let's train and be prepared. > If > the reg is all I have, maybe I'm in the water, still swimming with the > casualty, do you want me to just let him stay hypoxic & maybe apneic, or > ventilate him? In water is different story. I still do not know about that. Its a judgement call and remember the lowest common denominator/public list/its you idea.What you or I may be able to pull off may not be right for everyone in every situation. > Rich L > > NB- my intent in the above is not to disparage EMTs or EMT-Ps, but to point > out that they function under different rules, and under a different set of > circumstances, than in these hypothetical examples. Absolutely none taken. Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Thomas A. Easop <tomeasop@mi*.co*> > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 4:01 PM > Subject: Re: Experiment: Purge inflating > > > Rich: > > > > Lungs are not condoms or balloons AND we are not highly trained medical > doctors > > in the comfort and control of an operating room. > > > > Best thing to do if you want to use the reg for resuscitation: become an > > anesthesilogist and do it in the OR. > > > > If you are serious about what to do on dive trips that go bad, take an EMT > > class. I think they are about $150.00 in New York, and last about 100 - > 110 > > hours. You can then also do other things, like work or volunteer as an EMT > so > > you'll have experience. > > > > Barring that take at least a CPR class and ask the instructors about your > > specific situations. > > > > Or get some EMT's or Paramedics to come out on dives with you, the same > way you > > round up support divers for the big excursions. > > > > Tom > > > > Rich Lesperance wrote: > > > > > Karen, > > > > > > The lungs are not a balloon, nor are they a condom. > > > > > > If the human lungs were constructed of latex, your analogy might hold. > > > Sometimes, however, analogies fail, and we must rely on experience. > > > > > > So here I am, a humble student of diving, trying to figure out what is > the > > > safest and most effective method. On one hand, I have your analogy of > > > blowing up condoms with your reg. On the other hand, I have the > experience > > > of an anesthesiologist who actually did this on a patient, and reported > it > > > worked fine. > > > > > > So, I wonder which answer I'll choose? > > > > > > Rich L > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Karen Nakamura <karen@gp*.co*> > > > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 7:33 PM > > > Subject: Experiment: Purge inflating > > > > > > > Folks - > > > > > > > > There's been a lot of medical evidence against purge inflating an > > > > unconcious, non-breathing drown victim. The proponents of this > dangerous > > > > practice haven't presented any evidence to the contrary. Nonetheless, > > > there > > > > are still some folks who think it's both safe and practical. > > > > > > > > Here's an experiment to try in the safety of your own home. You will > need: > > > > > > > > * Condom or large-mouth balloon > > > > * Scuba regulator and tank (air is fine) > > > > > > > > Blow the condom/balloon up once or twice with your own breaths. Notice > the > > > > size and shape. The condom will inflate so that it's almost balloon > shaped > > > > when you've given it a good full breath. > > > > > > > > Now put the mouth of the condom over your regulator's mouthpiece. Now, > try > > > > to inflate the condom. If you don't have your hand over the regulator > > > vents, > > > > the condom will become ... well ... semi-erect, but it won't balloon > up to > > > > full lung size since there isn't sufficient pressure. In order to get > > > > sufficient pressure, you have to close the mouthpiece vents, but this > is > > > > much more difficult than it appears and it's hard to get enough > coverage > > > > over the vents at the same time as applying just the right amount of > > > > pressure to the purge valve. > > > > > > > > You'll get one of two results most of the time: an underinflated > condom > > > > (lung) or overinflated, burst condom (lung). > > > > > > > > Now imagine trying to do this at the same pace as you'd be giving > rescue > > > > breaths. Try imagine doing this while towing someone in the water. It > just > > > > isn't very practical either in or out of the water. > > > > > > > > This isn't even the full picture, in real life you'd also have to > worry > > > about: > > > > * Making sure the mouthpiece seal is secure > > > > * Making sure the victim's airway is open and clear > > > > * Lung inflations aren't as visible as a condom inflating > > > > > > > > Conclusion: take a rescue/CPR/O2 course and stick to what you know. > > > > -- > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > -- > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > -- > > The Guns and Armour of Scapa Flow Scotland > > 1998 Underwater Photographic Survey of Historic Wrecks > > http://www.gunsofscapa.demon.co.uk/ > > > > > > -- > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- The Guns and Armour of Scapa Flow Scotland 1998 Underwater Photographic Survey of Historic Wrecks http://www.gunsofscapa.demon.co.uk/ -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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