Mailing List Archive Mailing List Archive
George, Obviously whan U have a team things get EZer. Especially if team is trained & can do things in unison. W/ scooters & surafce support I may even opt to not resuscitate to get the victim to a dry platform has fast as possible. These R all judgment calls & each resQ is unique. Still +ve P ventilation of unconscious dive accident victim on a dry platform using the demand valve remains central to current DAM Paramedics have an issue w/ that - mainly because of their protcols & the untenable belief that +ve P ventilation will blow lungs. This issue came up on rec scuba & some very vociferous paramedic was about shoot those that were advocating +ve P using a demand valve. Look forwrad to chatting w/ U, maybe even diving w/ U -my 'gear' & all. Safe bubbles --- kirvine@sa*.ne* wrote: > On top of the water is what we are doing. Land or > boat is nice, and we > head that way or get picked up, but do what ever we > can in the meantime. > > Usually, we have more than two people and we all > have scooters. In fact, > I require support divers to be on scooters, and one > tows while one > works. > > I know how you are about scientific proof and > methods. And you know I > run with a lot less. > > Let me know when you are down here again - I have a > lot of questions to > ask you about physiology ( non diving stuff). > > > Esat Atikkan wrote: > > > > Georgw, > > I agree w/ U when it comes to +ve P O2 > ventilation. > > We have been teaching this since the early mid > 80's > > (my O2/DAM course was in 1985 - I think). > > Never ever had one doubt as to validity of +ve P > > ventilation of unconscious victims of diving > > accidents. > > The issue is the modality used. > > > > Scuba reg in water - not practical > > Demand valve used in +ve P mode on hard surface > > peace of cake. > > > > As a matter of fact I have had endless arguments > w/ > > outfits (some in S Fl) that do not have demand > valves > > in their O2 kits. > > What I love best is the non-rebreather masks w/ > the > > flaps removed - C if we can reduce the FiO2 > further > > :-> > > > > Hope U had a nice Thanksgiving. > > > > Esat > > --- kirvine@sa*.ne* wrote: > > > Esat, how long does it take you to get dressed > in > > > the morning, or do you > > > just end up staying home? > > > > > > So you agree with me on this, but now you say I > > > shold only do it on dry > > > land, not in the water. > > > > > > Esat, when I do it and it works, I walk on > water. > > > > > > Esat Atikkan wrote: > > > > > > > > Very interesting - couple of pts need > > > clarification: > > > > > > > > 1. Was this on dry land or in water w/ patieng > > > clad in > > > > usual dive gear, wetsuit etc? The testimonial > > > would > > > > indicate that a normal volunteer was being > > > pressure > > > > ventilated. Obviously, if clearance is > obtained > > > from > > > > the ethics boards of the institution, this is > an > > > > experiment that can be carried in a research > > > setting. > > > > But it also indicates that the P from the reg > was > > > able > > > > to overcome the natural resistance of the > > > volunteer to > > > > exclude P fed gas. Thus I think a little more > > > data on > > > > experiment design & controls would B necessary > to > > > > evaluate the findings of the good doctor. > > > > > > > > Namely: What flow rates & Ps were used? > > > > What back pressure settings were > inplace? > > > > How much gas was introduced? > > > > Were the lung contents analyzed for > xO2 & > > > xCO2 > > > > > > > > & did they indeed vary from using > exhaled > > > air > > > > More importantly were blood gases > analyzed > > > & > > > > compared > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Was the rescuer using usual dive gear, > > > > resuscitating & towing > > > > 3. Any type of resuscitaion is pointless, > > > irrespective > > > > of the FiO2, unless the patient has a working > > > ticker. > > > > 4. How many divers dive w/ a ScubaPro reg > attached > > > toi > > > > their O2 supply (haow many carry O2?) > > > > 5. I would love to C this done in water, in > full > > > dive > > > > regalia w/ effective simultaneous > resuscitation & > > > > towing. I write this not because I doubt the > > > > experiences of Irvine et al, but because we > have > > > tried > > > > it numerous times (on live patients in water, > on > > > > relatively sophisticated CPR mannequins in the > > > > classroom) & have had not had success. In the > > > case of > > > > the mannequins we were able to register about > 0.6 > > > l > > > > rise in 'inhaled volume'. We got the best > results > > > w/ > > > > Omega II, wh/ R side vent regs. They still > > > required > > > > two hands when using mitts or gloves. > > > > 6. The issue of water being introduced into > victim > > > > remains unresolved & would require in ordinate > > > care, > > > > particularly if being performed where seas R > an > > > issue. > > > > 7. Despite the disparaging of exhaled gas for > > > > ventilation, the mouth to snorkel tech (get > rid of > > > > those dumb side vent snorkels) allows for a > EZly > > > > taught tech that is efficient from the sndpt > of > > > twoing > > > > speed. It does suffer from the issue of > > > introducing > > > > the mouth piece into the mouth of the victim, > no > > > mean > > > > feat, but the scuba reg suffers from the same > > > drawback > > > > - yes folks that mouth piece has to go > squarely > > > into > > > > the mouth of an unresponsive victim. At times > the > > > > mouth may B open, but then at times it is not. > > > > > > > > The testimonial of a physician in such a > 'pushing > > > the > > > > envelope' tech is welcome, but I am sure he as > > > well as > > > > all of us are aware, things operate a little > > > different > > > > on dry land w/ volunteeer victims as opposed > to > > > the > > > > field. > > > > > > > > Let me reiterate that I believe in using a > demand > > > > valve for +ve P ventilation once the > unconscious > > > > victim is on dry land. We teach the technique > as > > > a > > > > std part of an O2 & DAM course. Even DAN has > > > finally > > > > accepted merits of same, though still does not > > > teach > > > > it in the basic course. > > > > > > > > The issue is O2 or air ventilation using a > > > standard > > > > scuba reg in water. I think, despite > testimonial > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
Navigate by Author:
[Previous]
[Next]
[Author Search Index]
Navigate by Subject:
[Previous]
[Next]
[Subject Search Index]
[Send Reply] [Send Message with New Topic]
[Search Selection] [Mailing List Home] [Home]