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Bill, you left out the guy who jumped off the dock in the Pennsylvania rock quarry and was fouond with his bungee wings unable to inflate at depth due to the elastic pressure. Also, when I tried to lift Jane with her own bungee wings, I was unable to inflate them with either my argon bottle or my back gas due to the fact that the elastic just blew the opv back open, and the cheap ass inflator on them blew both ways. I did not want to inflate her drysuit since it would merely blow off near the surface and we could lose her. I had to leave my freediving float attached to her, deco out by scootering next to the line , and go back with a rope to get her up. Assholes like Kuiper don't get it, but hopefully they will serve as powers of example of who dive sbungee wings - strokes. Bill Mee wrote: > > Greg, > > I was referring to the well documented deaths, which have been > publicized on this and other lists, over the last 2 years. I happen to > be very familiar with several of these cases and well informed with > respect to others in much the same way that you have shared your > opinion on the deaths at Madison Blue Springs. You will note that I > have not commented on this tragedy inasmuch as I am not informed > regarding the specific details. Unlike a lot of people my memory of > the personal side of these tragedies is not in a perpetual state of > erasure. > > You are very cute when you make remarks like > > "Also if you feel that bungee wings are dangerous would there not be a > large percentage of the bungee wing wearing crowd dropping dead? " > > Well Greg, do people who use cell phones have a higher incidence of > brain tumors or do people with brain tumors tend to like to use cell > phones? > > > Michael Elkins did not just drop dead. He dropped to the bottom in > 250fsw offshore West Palm Beach, while wearing a wet suit and steel > back tanks and stage bottles. He was low on gas and his bungee wings > did not inflate. Because he was low on gas or as a result of the > stress of his situation he was unable to inflate these wings manaully > or orally. His body has never been recovered. > > Are you aware of the amount of static lung loading required to inflate > a constrained gas bladder? Completely aside from the streamlining > issue, do you think that is a wise design feature to constrain the > inflation system on a buoyancy compensator? > > Neither did Jane Orenstein simply drop dead. She also dropped to > 270fsw after having breathed the wrong deco gas during an > "introductory" training session (the high oxygen was on the right side > - that should be obvious right? Especially since there were no easily > visble bottle markings) while her instructor watched her. When George > Irvine, Dan Volker and Robert Carmichael recovered her body she had > her hand locked around the inflator of her bungee wings. They were not > inflated, needless to say. > > Maybe Charlie McGurr just dropped dead and nobody knows what killed > him because his buddies, who should have been there to be his last > chance, were making sure that they got their money's worth out of > their precious little charter. Instead of accompanying Charlie to the > surface > they chose to leave him at the worst possible moment of his crisis. > Are people who solo dive just dropping deaed like flies? It's hard to > say Greg, when there is nobody around, kind of like the tree falling > in the forest, to determine what happened. > > And then there was James Hendersen. Who was found dead in Devils Eye > with both knobs bent off right near the main line and not far from the > exit. Jim was an highly experienced ex fighter pilot and was also a > airline pilot. Gee, what a waste. He could have waited for someone to > dive with him. > > Oh, Greg, you surely surely haven't forgotten about Tony Smith. A real > nice guy with a lot of friends and a very experienced diver. He was > effectively solo when he jumped off the back of a dive boat with his > air off, grossly overweighted, and unfortunately, by himself. In his > case the bungy wings weren't at fault because there was no gas > available to inflate them. His buddies saved him, his deadbody that > is, after they had completed their dive and realized he wasn't around. > > And last but not least, you just had to take a cheap shot as us on the > issue of the USDCT finding broken lines at Wakulla. The broken lines > these guys found were their own mess that their project had installed > years prior and we had left in place. You should be real proud that > they followed your recommendation and ran more line over the existing > lines. A propos of nothing, Henry Kendall was "solo diving" a Mk Cis > Lunar rebreather in Wakulla springs under the aegis of the USDCT when > "natural causes" overcame him and he was found face down on the bottom > of the spring. > > Greg, do you have any idea how disconcerting it is to be scootering > along along the line in a low visibility cave and suddenly find > yourself off on another line? It sounds to me that you need to come > down here and tell us all how the cow ate the cabbage. > > Best regards, > > Bill Mee > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kuiper, Greg <GregKuiper@pa*.co*> > To: 'techdiver@aquanaut.com' <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 9:51 PM > Subject: RE: controlling manners on channel > > Bill Mee, > > In your email you claim that all the bodies you have pulled > up have died as a result of the following: "lack of bottle > markings, overweighting, deep air, failed bungee wings or > solo diving." Can you please tell me which bodies lacked > the bottle markings, whose bungie wings failed, who you > recovered that was solo diving and who was overweighted. > > In particular I am curious which agencies you claim promote > the following concepts: > Overweighting, > lack of bottle markings, > solo diving. > > Also if you feel that bungee wings are dangerous would there > not be a large percentage of the bungee wing wearing crowd > dropping dead? You may think this a stupid question, but > with your comments about them being so dangerous I am > curious as to why. I agree with you that they are not > streamlined, but if they are responsible for lots of deaths > please inform the list as to which deaths they are > responsible for. > > I would also be interested in why you would tell someone on > the list not to listen to my opinion. > > And finally how many bodies have you pulled up? > > This email is not meant to inflame or enrage you. I am just > curious as to what support you have for the previously > metioned quote. > > Thanks, > Greg Kuiper > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Mee [mailto:wwm@sa*.ne*] > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:42 PM > To: Anthony Appleyard > Cc: kirvine@sa*.ne*; techdiver@aquanaut.com; Jim Cobb; > bdi; > john.r.strohm@BI*.co*; Jr." > Subject: Re: controlling manners on channel > > Anthony, > > There is nothing funny or polite when you recover the body > of someone > partially eaten by crabs or bloated beyond recogntion or > foaming and > bleeding at the mouth and ears after having been hauled up > from 50 fathoms. > It is even less funny when you find that the direct or > indirect cause of > death was some idiocy such as lack of bottle marking, > overweighting, deep > air, failed bungee wings or solo diving or some other > inexcusable nonsense. > When you see that such practices are either taught by or > endorsed by > technical dive agencies or rogue dive instructors you become > even more > incensed. > > There is no language or manners foul enough to convey my > displeasure with > those who encourage and promote practices which lead to > death and misery. > Don't you think for one moment that the relatives of these > dead people > simply forget about them in the same way that the "list" > forgets their names > and their lives. > > Before you go agreeing with the Dave Suttons, Kevin Flynns, > Gregg Kuipers > and other offended people of the techno dive world with > engorged "killfiles" > you stop and ask yourself if you would rather that you have > someone such as > George Irvine speak out on your dead behalf or you would > prefer some lame > and pathetic eulogy to the effect that "Why Anthony was a > charming lad who > died happily while doing what he enjoyed most". > > The fact is that George's so called "manners" get your > attention and those > of the others in much the same way as good car wreck stops > traffic, all the > while everyone complains about the traffic delay, but they > rubber neck and > gawk anyway. Maybe when they observe the tragedy they are > more careful > next time around. > > And then I have ask myself, what sort of "tough guy" who > really go and jumps > off the back of a pitching dive boat into 50 fathoms of dark > water is > offended by some internet hyperbole. When I listen to some > of the "epistles > of the offended" , which by the way have been pretty > consistent over the > years in terms of complaint content, I am stunned by the > pompous indignance > of the outraged. They rarely address the underlying issues, > but instead > argue with the nature of the message delivery. Why don't > these guys ask > themselves and others why Irvine is attacking some perceived > stupidity? > Instead it is alway something like "he called the training > agency which said > it was ok to breath from unmarked bottles dumbfucks" or he > said that "the > accident scene was like an evidence table at a stupidity > investigation" or > "they should provide free shovels with Inspriation > Rebreathers" or I could > go on and on. I would rather that they take the same time > that they > invested in the little public complaints to write out the > names, published > on this list, of the people who died in the last two years > while in engaged > in some form of technical diving, where the cause of death > was preventable. > > If you or anyone can't figure out why Irvine is > apoplectically pissed off, > and instead get your panties in a wad, then feel free to > email me privately > and I will be happy to explain to you quite civilly the > genesis of the > problem. Or of course, you can do as John Strohm does and > simply ask Irvine > politely and privately and you will receive a very rational, > articulate, > deferential and polite answer. > > Best wishes, > > Bill Mee > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony Appleyard <mclssaa2@fs*.mt*.um*.ac*.uk*> > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:48 AM > Subject: controlling manners on channel > > Someone wrote:- > > Irvine quickly got added to my killfile, and it > > amazes me why anyone listens to his drivel. > > john.r.strohm@BI*.co* replied (Subject: Re: A question > about who is the > mouth):- > > > Well, I'll tell you, Dave. I listen to George because he > and his team > have > > done some absolutely incredible things, with a safety > record that is > > several orders of magnitude better than anyone else. ... > > There are these two sorts of things that people may object > to on channel:- > (A) If in some matter of diving, I say that X=2, and > Irvine says that X=3, > then each may say that the other's opinion is drivel, but > they are both > reasoned statements and have a right to be heard, whether > each is right or > wrong. I know it's annoying if the two persist in differing, > but that's > life. > (B) Abuse and bad language, such as one recent message > that contained 2 > screenfuls of lavatory-mouthing in uppercase, I pity any > women on channel > who > must wade through that sort of stuff. To me, it isn't just > the > offensiveness, > but the bulk for me to wade through before I start work in > the mornings: > e.g. > today half of my incoming email was the "A question about > who is the mouth" > thread. Does "a stroke" as often used on this list as an > accusation mean > "someone who strokes his own ego"? If not, what?, so we know > what we are > talking about. Who on this list has heard of netiquette? > > PLEASE why can't this list temporarily have a moderator > until peoples' > manners and tempers simmer down? Reiteration and bad > language don't get > through on email groups as Tolklang and Virus-L that have a > moderator. > > ....................................................................... > > Anthony Appleyard, http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk (sci-fi > stories, 3D > graphics, software) > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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