Hi George

Glad to see you still respond to this stuff.
>John, CCR has nothing to do with it - I am talking the gear sloppery.
>Sure, if I have to rebreather dive, I use a mechanical and dive with a
>buddy, but then I don't have nine deaths to make excuses for, do I ,
>John, and I do not have to prove anything like these guys do - I already
>proved it a long time ago before I ever started diving. Using a CRR for
>this kind of diving is like using plutonium in a rat trap.
I dont agree, I assume that you have no experience with a CCR, like I
have without a SCR, you just have more dramatic ways of putting it.
The interesting thing here G is I remember the days that you slagged all
RB`s, what you based your decisions on was development and a solution to
the problem you faced. Your change at that point was only based on
equipment to allow you to do the job, nothing else changed in your DIR
regime. What happens next?
>
>On the one hand we hear how tough these dark, cold water WW2 wreck dives
>are, but then you tell me they are negotiable with bottles ponied behind
>the back. Which is it? Are they so easy that any slopped together "kit"
>is acceptable, or are they in fact difficult dives which would be better
>done with neatly organised kit?
Oh Absolutely!! I think that over here we have a problem with all the
gear on one side, as I said in my post we all agree that simple is best
but having all the deco on one side I have never understood. I did
assume that it was a development from the days that you had no deco gas
and the torch cannister was the problem, it is big for what you do so
the only place to put anything else ( at first only one tank?) was on
the other side, as things developed then all ended up on the other side.
Frankly I find that regardless of how well it is signposted having
gasses on opposite sides is easier and less inclined to cock up.
Remember, no scoots, no big batteries for torches, streamlined for our
specific interests.
>
>You tell me our system won't work for your divers,
I never said that George, but it does seem the case that yours is not
the only system that can work.
> but that a clustery
>of gear sprayed all over the body is easy for the same divers? Not
>likely.
Why is it more complex to have a back mounted tank and two side mounts
on opposite sides than all on one side, If you can explain this to me I
would be delighted to take it up. What I will not do is do it because
you do. The easiest way is to take up my several invites and come here
and show me. This is not a challenge, I am genuinly interested. 
>
>More beliveable is that you just have not bothered to look closely
>enough to understand our methods, and how very simple and foolproof they
>really are.
Not true, I have looked closely, as above.
>
>Let's just look at one aspect. We can identify our gases very easily:
>the long hose is on the right post and around behind the neck - it
>contains back gas, and is either in the mouth or clipped to the right
>chest d ring. The back up is on the left post, and is secured around the
>neck with an elastic of some type - we know this is the backup and we
>know it is back gas.
Rodger Rodger, I have never had a prob with this, its the gasses off one
side that I struggle with, it has to be easier to have your marking
system with the high and low gasses on different sides, the confusion
has to be less.
>
>Our other gases are marked on the bottles by breathable depth, and are
>TURNED OFF and PARKED unless they are being breathed, so we do not
>confuse them with eich other or with our primary and backup backgas
>regulators. There are no other markings, or identifiers on these hoses
>or regs - they are not needed and to use such identifiers invites a
>mistake.
G you mark them in feet, we mark them in metres, not our fault, it is
the measuring system we use. With 50% our depth is 22m, normally21m is
marked to avoid a 1.6 po2. Confusing when an air tank marked 21% could
be close. Our bottles are turned off as well, not sure what you mean by
parked, is this left on the line? I assume so, we dont do this, probably
because we dont dive in caves and have options to surface.
>
>Now, John, if I have bottles turned on behind my back with hoses
>everywhere
Simple hose, simple guage and thats optional, thats all. The point is
you have to run with it on, I accept that. But remember if you use
redundancy to its full then this has to apply to all stages of the dive,
do you have redundant deco gas? If not then how do you cope with the
same failure scenario that dictates the whole twin set back gas
scenario?. The schedules used should always have a back up,the option
here is do you take loads of 32%, 40% or whatever( I am in your camp
about the 50% here and staying on the he) to cover the failure? or do
you have redundant backup? the back mounted o2 is there as a bonus and
should be regarded as such, ie shorten the deco, if it fails the your
set up is still safe and the desired result of getting home is still
okay, it just takes longer
> , tell me how that is a smart thing to do? Explain that
>"system" to me, and how DIR is so difficult and requires an "olympic
>athelete" to use effectively.
Well G, the olympic athlete thing comes from your own commitment, not
all of us are like that, the DIR thing is based on simplicity and
evolution, this is what should be applied, not a single dogma that
creates camp followers that use your groups achievements to make
themselves look good.
>
>It is your resentments talking here - DIR is the simple , easy system.
Resent I resent, do you feel better now?
Simple I agree with, your system is very specific and we all can learn
from it, it is not the answer to all types of diving.

John Thornton
>
>
>John Thornton wrote:
>> 
>> Hi George
>> I know most of these guys and deep air is not in the make up of the guys
>> I know, some of them are ex offenders but as far as I know no more.
>> certainly when they have dived with me there has been no deep air stuff,
>> all use ENDs of about 35-40m. If they did different on this trip then I
>> agree with you George.
>> Being that I now use a CCR and I seem to be aware of your opinions on
>> them I cant see the problem with asking why the oxygen is a problem, i
>> assume that its because of the back mount, what is wrong with that?
>> Of all the configs I have seen the bottom line is familiarity with your
>> set up. Your DIR system has caused a lot of probs to people using it in
>> their early days up here, the left stage cylinder mounting is great for
>> you guys but I have seen some real laughs and confusion with it.
>> Possibly because they dont follow a regime that rivals an Olympic
>> athlete but there again very few do. Simplistic is the key, I am
>> delighted that your set up works as well for you guys as it does, I am
>> also glad that the config these guys use works for them.
>> Skin bends I know occur in all diving, including yours, if you have the
>> secret then pass it on, let them decide whether to follow it up or not.
>> If any idiot can do it then so be it, I suppose that some are bigger
>> idiots than others.
>> 
>> keep up the good work George
>> 
>> John Thornton
>> 
>> In message <37E6C05F.3659@sa*.ne*>, kirvine@sa*.ne* writes
>> >John Thornton wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi George
>> >>
>> >> Seem to manage to do the dives though.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >> John
>> >>
>> >
>> >  John, I guess you did not read the web site. The fact is that all they
>> >did was stage a continuous cluster while setting a piss poor example and
>> >making it clear why there ar so many accidents in this sport.
>> >
>> >  How about you explain to us why what they are doing makes any sense,
>> >since they clearly can not. Let's start with bragging about deep air
>> >diving on the web site, and then lets move on to ponied oxygen behind
>> >the back?????
>> >
>> >  Do the dives? Don't make me laugh.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >  The fact is any idiot can do what you are calling "dives", most of the
>> >time, and all of you prove that every day. You a
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> john thornton          web page http://www.scapaflow.com
>> 
>> iantd trimix instructor,      skipper/owner "Karin"
>> inspiration instructor
>> 
>> polrudden house               tel.01856 874761
>> peerie sea loan               fax 01856 870950
>> kirkwall
>> orkney kw15 1uh
>
>

john thornton          web page http://www.scapaflow.com

iantd trimix instructor,      skipper/owner "Karin"
inspiration instructor

polrudden house               tel.01856 874761
peerie sea loan               fax 01856 870950
kirkwall
orkney kw15 1uh


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