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Art,
3 feet of vis in a big current is a good reason to abort a dive. For a
cattle boat type tech operator, I'd say 3 foot vis and big currents should
be a mandatory abort for the whole trip. If its just 2 or three of us, I'd
need a good reason to decide the dive is worth doing. Once its over 10 or
15 feet vis, the dive can be plenty of fun.
Regards,
Dan
Hey Dan,
Now that really scares me and I'm not easily scared. The thought of being
dropped to the sand in 3 ft. of viz. is crazy! I can see it now, drop in on
the Chopa, you'll know then you've found the wreck cause it'll find you
first. Even in a small 1 knot current, with 3 or less viz. you'll end up
smacking into the mono-filament covered side before you know it. I can
understand the possibility of dropping a shot line and going down that but
free dropping to the wreck simply won't work up here! I've got goose bumps
just thinking about it! Honestly, 20 foot viz. is considered good viz. up
here, no kidding. We occasionally get like 40 ft. but usually good viz. is
considered about 20 foot.
Not going to comment on the Doria dives. I don't know what's going on there
but I too wish something would change. I've just about lost my interest to
dive the Doria.
Thanks,
Art.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Volker [mailto:dlv@ga*.ne*]
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 6:17 PM
To: Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail); Paltz, Art
Cc: Bill Mee; Kirvine
Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line; Are some diver's like
Rapists?
-----Original Message-----
From: Paltz, Art [mailto:Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*]
Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 9:14 PM
To: Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line
Hey Dan,
I never said our currents were anything like your rippers
down in Fl.
Probably the strongest current any of us would get in the
water with is
about 2 knots. Just an estimate though. This being said,
hanging on an
anchor line in < 2 knot current is actually quite pleasant.
Rougher seas
means more scope on the anchor line which minimizes the
bouncing for the
divers in the water. One of the big differences here is
that it seems you
guys don't have the option of hanging onto the anchor line
even if you
wanted to (realistically in a strong Fl. Current).
I feel my deco time is best spent doing a slow swim in a
horizontal
position. I would refuse to clip to a line if I was to do a
NE wreck dive.
I might hang on to it ( by hand) occasionally, but the
clipping idea bothers
me. I see no reason to fight a current. We like to "use"
currents to see
more, and to make diving more pleasurable. Fighting them is
like pissing in
the wind. Is your face wet <g>?
There are days when we have very light currents on deep
wrecks, but
anchoring the "only" boat to the wreck is still a bad
idea--you never know
when the current might suddenly increase, and a dive planned
for light
current will then be a poorly planned dive.
I certainly wouldn't
want to be flapping in the breeze with a current > 2 knots!
How do you guys get in the water then? If you've got a 5
knot current I'd
imagine it's a pretty tough descent down just like coming up
would be?
Art,
This is where our drift system makes the dive really
pleasant. Even on low
vis dives off of Stuart Florida ( 15 to 20 foot vis normal
and 200 ft deep
wrecks like the Mulliphan or the 215 foot deep
Tugboat---each about 20 miles
off shore), our procedure is to drop up current and drift
into the wreck.
This takes a good captain ( he has to estimate current speed
and direction
against the dive team's descent rate) and reasonably
proficient dive teams
who can go immediately down with no screwing around on the
surface, and hit
bottom before the current moves them farther than the
captain has
estimated). The fact we can hit a tug boat at 215 feet in
low vis and big
currents indicates the technique is not really so hard on
"normal" size
wrecks. On wrecks like the Mulliphan ( a Cruiser with big
Gun Turrets) its
size makes the drift down incredibly simple. You just fall
down, and as you
approach the bottom---"look, there's the wreck, coming right
for us <g>".
You then swim up just a tiny bit higher than the top of the
wreck, and then
once over it, you drop down into the lee side of the
structure, out of the
current. You hook off your torpedo float so the boat on top
see's you have
settled in, and about 24 minutes later the boat will expect
to see the
torpedo moving down current again, as the team(s) unhook it,
and begin the
ascent. A few minutes later a safety diver will take a
leisurely swim down
the float line, moving with the current so he will
experience no current,
and he will meet up with the teams at the pre-arranged time
and depth,
usually around 100 feet. Overhead, the boat follows the
torpedo.
Less than an hour later, the first team(s) are out of the
water, and the
second groups/teams can be dropped. And so on.
Two three man teams would be the max ( at one time) I would
imagine putting
on a wreck that has claimed many lives---actually, once a
wreck has claimed
many lives, you would think operators ( read this as the
"Seeker" ) would
limit teams to one three man team at a time, or may be two 2
man teams. Much
easier for the boat and safety divers to support, and if
people are dead,
more support is clearly needed.
If there were boats up here with Chase Boats, ton's of room,
everybody
diving similar profiles, etc. I'd dive with them. Until
this changes I
think I'm going to have to stick with what we have.
Honestly, even if I had
all the above I'd still rather hang from an anchor line.
Drifting deco in 3
feet of viz. just doesn't seem to appeal to me!
Art.
Art,
While our Pompano Beach and deep Jupiter dives are high
vis--80 to 150 feet
on a regular basis, we sometimes dive north to the Stuart
Fort Pierce area,
for its much richer marine ecosystem. Diving the pinnacles
which run from
325 to 180 is fun even in 5 foot vis, as the 10 to 15 pound
lobsters you can
grab don't require much vis. In the wrecks like the tugboat,
at 215, you see
40 pound groupers covering the bottom like grunts on a reef
in the keys or
Fort Lauderdale. You see baitfish so thick vis drops to zero
until a big
grouper blows through it with mouth wide open, scattering
the baitfish and
forming a tunnel you can then se through. Vis is poor here
most of the time,
but seeing the ocean like it was everywhere 10,000 years ago
is worth it to
me. The deco part of these dives is easier than what you
do---you are being
dragged. We are just floating, watching the baitfish and
amberjacks blow by
us on the deep stops, then just baitfish up to 30 feet, then
baitfish and an
occasional marlin or sailfish at the 20 foot stop.
George created DIR diving to deal with Cave problems, but
we've used his
techniques on far more ocean dives than DIR will ever be
utilized in-cave
for. Its become more of an Ocean system than a cave system,
from pure
volume of application. Its used all over the world's
oceans, and its
always the best way to dive. Kind of the way there is
usually a "right way",
and a "wrong way" to do things, DIR is just a compilation of
all the right
ways. I'm sure you guys enjoy using "some" of the "right
ways", but the
techniques used on the Doria have DIW written all over them.
The dive sites
people have died on in the NE don't kill people, the
methods and gear used
"contribute" heavily to the death toll, and to a lesser
degree, too little
diver screening. And too much "looking the other way". If
you see a girl
about to be raped, and you do nothing, in my book you're as
bad as the
rapist. If you see a diver geared up to DIE, you CAN NOT
look the other way.
I hope I don't need to explain why further.
Regards,
Dan Volker
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Volker [mailto:dlv@ga*.ne*]
Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 6:18 PM
To: Kirvne@Sa*. Net; Mailing Tech
Diver List
(E-mail); Paltz, Art
Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line
Art,
The mere idea that you guys typically do
your deco hanging
on a fixed line,
indicates pretty well you dive in very light
currents by the
standard of
S.Fl Tech dives.
When you have a "real current", like a Gulf
Stream current
blowing at 5.5
mph, not too many NE wreck divers would
enjoy "hanging,
clipping , or
whine-ing on the line for an hour or more of
deco. When you
do have one of
these "real currents", it would be stupid to
set your self
up as a human
trolling rig, flailing in the current, and
causing serious
muscle
contractions as you attempt to stabilize
yourself in this
precarious
position.
The solution, as George has already told
you, is having dive
groups dive
reasonable profiles, and to limit the number
of divers in
the water at any
one time, to a number easily managed by the
main dive boat
or chase boat
combo.
As to the issue of diving in a shipping
channel where ships
will ignore even
your dive boat, your idea of "clipping off
to your big line
sounds like a
great way for you guys to omit deco
obligations and go
water skiing behind
one of these container ships <g>.
I'd use a high speed torpedo float, which
is pulled by a
light line, and
which causes very small drag down on the
shipwreck when we
hook up to it.
This would be for a two or three man team.
While we don't
normally dive
this way, you could probably put two teams
down on a big
wreck at the same
time, but much more would start increasing
the stroke factor
in dive
planning. . When we finish ( each team), we
unhook and
drift free for
ascent. The boat on top follows. The divers
are relaxed and
muscle
contractions are a non-issue.
The divers will have a safety diver jumping
in at 24 minutes
into the dive
or pre-arranged time) to check on the
teams, and in your
shipping channel
scenario, to alert them to any big ships
about to go
through. A good safety
diver could certainly deal with the ship
about to be
overhead issue, even if
it required cutting or deflating the float
line, and then
deploying another
after the ship has passed.
Dan Volker
-----Original Message-----
From: Paltz, Art [mailto:Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 11:18 AM
To: Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line
I think you guys are missing the point.
Drift diving with
or without a buoy
is very dangerous. Heck, leaving the other
divers on a ball
is dangerous
when you are chasing the other divers. If
you had a chase
boat maybe this
is an option but I don't see how you're
going to drag the
drifting divers
back to the main boat? Having them drifting
in a major
shipping lane with
or without a chase boat is very dangerous.
It's much safer
to have the
divers use proper equipment and a strong
enough up-line to
tie off to the
wreck and support the divers. Like I said
before, if a
container ship can
run into a light tower siting up 150 feet,
you think they
are going to see
and steer around a float ball, lift bag or
little chase
boat? Your best
option is to stay close to the boat. Maybe
the ship will
see the dive boat
or can be called on the radio. By the time
an 800 foot
container traveling
at 18 knots saw a float ball it would be too
late to turn
the ship. I
really don't think the container ships sit
there and scan
the water with
binoculars miles in front of themselves
looking for a float
ball. They rely
on their radar and if they are looking at it
will steer to
avoid a moored
dive boat.
A chase boat is a wonderful thing but I
don't understand how
you tow them
back to the dive boat? If you were doing a
drift dive and
the boat was
following all the float balls, this is a
very different
situation. I have
done this and although I don't like it, it's
very effective
for this type of
diving. I don't think it works well in a 2
knot current
with a moored dive
boat. Being dragged at 2 knots against a 2
knot current
back to the dive
boat is not my idea of an enjoyable deco
hang.
Art.
-----Original Message-----
From: kirvine@sa*.ne*
[mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*]
Sent: Friday, August 27,
1999 8:56 AM
To: Scaleworks@ao*.co*
Cc: ststev@un*.co*;
Paltz, Art;
techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: Jersey
Up Line
Release and put a buoy on
the drifters, go
back and stand by
the main
line. Those on the main line
should have
already been
checked for
problems. If you could get
these guys to
coordinate,
everyone could
drift when the current is
moving, and
everyone could sit
when it is not.
Scaleworks@ao*.co* wrote:
>
> In a message dated
99-08-27 06:18:21 EDT,
kirvine@sa*.ne* writes:
>
> << The main boat needs
to
be free
> from the wreck line, or
releasable with a
pelican, like
the tuna
> fishermen use when they
get a big one on
chumming.>>
>
> Standard on the boat I
frequent most,
Captain Janet can be
off the mooring in
> seconds. Should the dive
boat chase down
drifting divers
and leave anyone on
> the line or bottom with no
support? The
point that was
made here, was that
> there is no reason to tie
off to a wreck
in any situation
to do an emergency
> ascent, that drifting deco
in an open
ocean is
prefferable.
>
> <<The Jersey up reel is
one more
accomodation to farm
animal stupidity -
> another peice of garbage
used to
compensate for doing it
wrong to start
> with. Another clusterfuck
waiting to
happen, like bondage
wings. >>
>
> But why? What is this
clusterfuck scenario
you are
implying is waiting to
> happen with a jersey
upline? If you are
on a deep wreck
in a team of 3, and
> are relying on your reel
as an upline, are
you going to
fit enough line on a
> reel to account for scope
in the line from
the current,
and that is strong
> enough to withstand
possible chafing on
the bottom, and
hold 3 divers in a
> current?
> What is the procedure you
reccomend.?
>
> Kevin
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