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Not disagreeing here. The thing about the wrecks here is that the viz. may be crap outside but might then be 60-80 feet inside the wreck where I usually am. We don't dive in what you would consider big currents. Most of us would not get in the water with 2+ knots running. With the conditions here (possibility of poor viz.) we just don't get in. Problem is you can't tell the viz. from the surface. I've done many dives where the horizontal viz. is so bad you can barely see your buddy going down. When you break through the thermocline at say 40-60 feet you might then be able to see all the way to the bottom. The reverse just happened 2 weeks ago. Bottom viz. was like 20 feet while the viz. at 30 feet was like the Caribbean. It was cobalt blue with at least 80 feet of viz. Could see the props of the boat from the 20 feet stop! Around here the only thing you can be sure of is the surface current from the surface. Sometimes it subsides at the bottom, sometimes it turns into a surge. Sometimes the viz. is crap up top and great at the bottom, vice versa or it's great or shit all the way down. You just don't know until you get in! I think your method might work in good viz. and a smaller crowd, like a 6-pack. Very difficult to implement on a boat with 12-18 divers. I know, pick another boat. There just isn't that many boats that do the wrecks I want to dive repetitively, plus I like the crowd and crew on the boat I frequent, the Wahoo. Do I get a free dive for the shameless plug for the Wahoo? :-) Art. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Volker [mailto:dlv@ga*.ne*] Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:45 AM To: Paltz, Art; Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail) Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line; Are some diver's like Rapists? Art, 3 feet of vis in a big current is a good reason to abort a dive. For a cattle boat type tech operator, I'd say 3 foot vis and big currents should be a mandatory abort for the whole trip. If its just 2 or three of us, I'd need a good reason to decide the dive is worth doing. Once its over 10 or 15 feet vis, the dive can be plenty of fun. Regards, Dan Hey Dan, Now that really scares me and I'm not easily scared. The thought of being dropped to the sand in 3 ft. of viz. is crazy! I can see it now, drop in on the Chopa, you'll know then you've found the wreck cause it'll find you first. Even in a small 1 knot current, with 3 or less viz. you'll end up smacking into the mono-filament covered side before you know it. I can understand the possibility of dropping a shot line and going down that but free dropping to the wreck simply won't work up here! I've got goose bumps just thinking about it! Honestly, 20 foot viz. is considered good viz. up here, no kidding. We occasionally get like 40 ft. but usually good viz. is considered about 20 foot. Not going to comment on the Doria dives. I don't know what's going on there but I too wish something would change. I've just about lost my interest to dive the Doria. Thanks, Art. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Volker [mailto:dlv@ga*.ne*] Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 6:17 PM To: Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail); Paltz, Art Cc: Bill Mee; Kirvine Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line; Are some diver's like Rapists? -----Original Message----- From: Paltz, Art [mailto:Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*] Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 9:14 PM To: Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail) Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line Hey Dan, I never said our currents were anything like your rippers down in Fl. Probably the strongest current any of us would get in the water with is about 2 knots. Just an estimate though. This being said, hanging on an anchor line in < 2 knot current is actually quite pleasant. Rougher seas means more scope on the anchor line which minimizes the bouncing for the divers in the water. One of the big differences here is that it seems you guys don't have the option of hanging onto the anchor line even if you wanted to (realistically in a strong Fl. Current). I feel my deco time is best spent doing a slow swim in a horizontal position. I would refuse to clip to a line if I was to do a NE wreck dive. I might hang on to it ( by hand) occasionally, but the clipping idea bothers me. I see no reason to fight a current. We like to "use" currents to see more, and to make diving more pleasurable. Fighting them is like pissing in the wind. Is your face wet <g>? There are days when we have very light currents on deep wrecks, but anchoring the "only" boat to the wreck is still a bad idea--you never know when the current might suddenly increase, and a dive planned for light current will then be a poorly planned dive. I certainly wouldn't want to be flapping in the breeze with a current > 2 knots! How do you guys get in the water then? If you've got a 5 knot current I'd imagine it's a pretty tough descent down just like coming up would be? Art, This is where our drift system makes the dive really pleasant. Even on low vis dives off of Stuart Florida ( 15 to 20 foot vis normal and 200 ft deep wrecks like the Mulliphan or the 215 foot deep Tugboat---each about 20 miles off shore), our procedure is to drop up current and drift into the wreck. This takes a good captain ( he has to estimate current speed and direction against the dive team's descent rate) and reasonably proficient dive teams who can go immediately down with no screwing around on the surface, and hit bottom before the current moves them farther than the captain has estimated). The fact we can hit a tug boat at 215 feet in low vis and big currents indicates the technique is not really so hard on "normal" size wrecks. On wrecks like the Mulliphan ( a Cruiser with big Gun Turrets) its size makes the drift down incredibly simple. You just fall down, and as you approach the bottom---"look, there's the wreck, coming right for us <g>". You then swim up just a tiny bit higher than the top of the wreck, and then once over it, you drop down into the lee side of the structure, out of the current. You hook off your torpedo float so the boat on top see's you have settled in, and about 24 minutes later the boat will expect to see the torpedo moving down current again, as the team(s) unhook it, and begin the ascent. A few minutes later a safety diver will take a leisurely swim down the float line, moving with the current so he will experience no current, and he will meet up with the teams at the pre-arranged time and depth, usually around 100 feet. Overhead, the boat follows the torpedo. Less than an hour later, the first team(s) are out of the water, and the second groups/teams can be dropped. And so on. Two three man teams would be the max ( at one time) I would imagine putting on a wreck that has claimed many lives---actually, once a wreck has claimed many lives, you would think operators ( read this as the "Seeker" ) would limit teams to one three man team at a time, or may be two 2 man teams. Much easier for the boat and safety divers to support, and if people are dead, more support is clearly needed. If there were boats up here with Chase Boats, ton's of room, everybody diving similar profiles, etc. I'd dive with them. Until this changes I think I'm going to have to stick with what we have. Honestly, even if I had all the above I'd still rather hang from an anchor line. Drifting deco in 3 feet of viz. just doesn't seem to appeal to me! Art. Art, While our Pompano Beach and deep Jupiter dives are high vis--80 to 150 feet on a regular basis, we sometimes dive north to the Stuart Fort Pierce area, for its much richer marine ecosystem. Diving the pinnacles which run from 325 to 180 is fun even in 5 foot vis, as the 10 to 15 pound lobsters you can grab don't require much vis. In the wrecks like the tugboat, at 215, you see 40 pound groupers covering the bottom like grunts on a reef in the keys or Fort Lauderdale. You see baitfish so thick vis drops to zero until a big grouper blows through it with mouth wide open, scattering the baitfish and forming a tunnel you can then se through. Vis is poor here most of the time, but seeing the ocean like it was everywhere 10,000 years ago is worth it to me. The deco part of these dives is easier than what you do---you are being dragged. We are just floating, watching the baitfish and amberjacks blow by us on the deep stops, then just baitfish up to 30 feet, then baitfish and an occasional marlin or sailfish at the 20 foot stop. George created DIR diving to deal with Cave problems, but we've used his techniques on far more ocean dives than DIR will ever be utilized in-cave for. Its become more of an Ocean system than a cave system, from pure volume of application. Its used all over the world's oceans, and its always the best way to dive. Kind of the way there is usually a "right way", and a "wrong way" to do things, DIR is just a compilation of all the right ways. I'm sure you guys enjoy using "some" of the "right ways", but the techniques used on the Doria have DIW written all over them. The dive sites people have died on in the NE don't kill people, the methods and gear used "contribute" heavily to the death toll, and to a lesser degree, too little diver screening. And too much "looking the other way". If you see a girl about to be raped, and you do nothing, in my book you're as bad as the rapist. If you see a diver geared up to DIE, you CAN NOT look the other way. I hope I don't need to explain why further. Regards, Dan Volker -----Original Message----- From: Dan Volker [mailto:dlv@ga*.ne*] Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 6:18 PM To: Kirvne@Sa*. Net; Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail); Paltz, Art Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line Art, The mere idea that you guys typically do your deco hanging on a fixed line, indicates pretty well you dive in very light currents by the standard of S.Fl Tech dives. When you have a "real current", like a Gulf Stream current blowing at 5.5 mph, not too many NE wreck divers would enjoy "hanging, clipping , or whine-ing on the line for an hour or more of deco. When you do have one of these "real currents", it would be stupid to set your self up as a human trolling rig, flailing in the current, and causing serious muscle contractions as you attempt to stabilize yourself in this precarious position. The solution, as George has already told you, is having dive groups dive reasonable profiles, and to limit the number of divers in the water at any one time, to a number easily managed by the main dive boat or chase boat combo. As to the issue of diving in a shipping channel where ships will ignore even your dive boat, your idea of "clipping off to your big line sounds like a great way for you guys to omit deco obligations and go water skiing behind one of these container ships <g>. I'd use a high speed torpedo float, which is pulled by a light line, and which causes very small drag down on the shipwreck when we hook up to it. This would be for a two or three man team. While we don't normally dive this way, you could probably put two teams down on a big wreck at the same time, but much more would start increasing the stroke factor in dive planning. . When we finish ( each team), we unhook and drift free for ascent. The boat on top follows. The divers are relaxed and muscle contractions are a non-issue. The divers will have a safety diver jumping in at 24 minutes into the dive or pre-arranged time) to check on the teams, and in your shipping channel scenario, to alert them to any big ships about to go through. A good safety diver could certainly deal with the ship about to be overhead issue, even if it required cutting or deflating the float line, and then deploying another after the ship has passed. Dan Volker -----Original Message----- From: Paltz, Art [mailto:Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*] Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 11:18 AM To: Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail) Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line I think you guys are missing the point. Drift diving with or without a buoy is very dangerous. Heck, leaving the other divers on a ball is dangerous when you are chasing the other divers. If you had a chase boat maybe this is an option but I don't see how you're going to drag the drifting divers back to the main boat? Having them drifting in a major shipping lane with or without a chase boat is very dangerous. It's much safer to have the divers use proper equipment and a strong enough up-line to tie off to the wreck and support the divers. Like I said before, if a container ship can run into a light tower siting up 150 feet, you think they are going to see and steer around a float ball, lift bag or little chase boat? Your best option is to stay close to the boat. Maybe the ship will see the dive boat or can be called on the radio. By the time an 800 foot container traveling at 18 knots saw a float ball it would be too late to turn the ship. I really don't think the container ships sit there and scan the water with binoculars miles in front of themselves looking for a float ball. They rely on their radar and if they are looking at it will steer to avoid a moored dive boat. A chase boat is a wonderful thing but I don't understand how you tow them back to the dive boat? If you were doing a drift dive and the boat was following all the float balls, this is a very different situation. I have done this and although I don't like it, it's very effective for this type of diving. I don't think it works well in a 2 knot current with a moored dive boat. Being dragged at 2 knots against a 2 knot current back to the dive boat is not my idea of an enjoyable deco hang. Art. -----Original Message----- From: kirvine@sa*.ne* [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*] Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 8:56 AM To: Scaleworks@ao*.co* Cc: ststev@un*.co*; Paltz, Art; techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: Re: Jersey Up Line Release and put a buoy on the drifters, go back and stand by the main line. Those on the main line should have already been checked for problems. If you could get these guys to coordinate, everyone could drift when the current is moving, and everyone could sit when it is not. Scaleworks@ao*.co* wrote: > > In a message dated 99-08-27 06:18:21 EDT, kirvine@sa*.ne* writes: > > << The main boat needs to be free > from the wreck line, or releasable with a pelican, like the tuna > fishermen use when they get a big one on chumming.>> > > Standard on the boat I frequent most, Captain Janet can be off the mooring in > seconds. Should the dive boat chase down drifting divers and leave anyone on > the line or bottom with no support? The point that was made here, was that > there is no reason to tie off to a wreck in any situation to do an emergency > ascent, that drifting deco in an open ocean is prefferable. > > <<The Jersey up reel is one more accomodation to farm animal stupidity - > another peice of garbage used to compensate for doing it wrong to start > with. Another clusterfuck waiting to happen, like bondage wings. >> > > But why? What is this clusterfuck scenario you are implying is waiting to > happen with a jersey upline? If you are on a deep wreck in a team of 3, and > are relying on your reel as an upline, are you going to fit enough line on a > reel to account for scope in the line from the current, and that is strong > enough to withstand possible chafing on the bottom, and hold 3 divers in a > current? > What is the procedure you reccomend.? > > Kevin -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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