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Dave,
I started my diving in Lake Erie, back when I lived in Buffalo. Is ice
diving cold enough <g>?.
But the reason I responded to this thread was because of a mounting tek
diver death toll. A big part of this is Doria trips, and more generally,
what is wrong with Doria trips.
I think one of the worst problems this type of NE cost dive has is that
"packed" boats let too many divers in the water at one time, and once in,
the "buddy teams" don't stay together---it becomes an "every man for
himself" free for all. Three foot vis will contribute heavily to this
phenomenon, even with moderately skilled tek divers, because this can tax
buddy skills--the constant difficulty many new tek divers have in
maintaining buddy contact when they are on sensory overload, combined with 3
foot vis spells trouble.
I'm NOT discussing 80 foot deep dives, I'm talking about 200 to 300 foot
deep dives with 3 foot vis or less. There is a huge difference.
I have no problem doing tek dives in 3 foot vis, but I don't enjoy them
nearly as much as I do tek dives with 20, 50 or 100 ft vis. I don't mind
doing the 3 foot vis 300 foot deep dive if I have a reason to, but this is
about having really good dive buddies like George or Bill, and having
automatic contact continuously, just due to sheer volume of buddy team
dives. Since I get to dive every weekend, why should I accept shit dives
when I can have a "good" dive?
If all you want to do is rummage around in the mud looking for wreck debris,
then you probably won't understand why I prefer "some" vis. I spearfish on
tek dives, and I like to see big fish. I like exploring new wrecks and
reefs, and it helps when you can see what you are looking at.
Back in college I used to ski, as a racer. I loved the sport, but there were
days I would not ski, when it rained on the slope ( there were people still
out skiing in it), when rocks were sticking up after a long melt, there were
days it would be more fun to do something else. Each of us should have more
than one sport anyway, so this should not be a problem. In tek diving, its
more fun when conditions are good, and its a lot safer as well.
If the NE wreck divers were not dropping dead so fast, this would be a moot
point---it would only be about how much fun you can have....With at least
one major tek boat up there doing Grim Reaper imitations, perhaps its time
for divers up there to consider conditions which are considerably more
"optimal". Maybe they should think about how much fun they can have on a
perfect day, and blow off the shit days.
Regards,
Dan Volker
-----Original Message-----
From: David & Jamie Thiesfeld [mailto:cwscuba@yv*.co*]
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 10:10 PM
To: Dan Volker; Paltz, Art; Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Jersey Up Line;
Dan,
This sounds like a troll but I'm going to bite anyway. Your response below
has got me curious as to how much cold water diving experience you have, and
I don't mean this as an insult.
A little background on why: I learned to dive in Florida while stationed
At Homestead AFB. Eventually I moved back home to the Northwest and a buddy
invited me diving on his dads boat in the San Juan Islands. Talk about
culture shock, this macho diver from Florida (me) was in for a rude
awakening with this cold water crap. Comparing diving in these two areas is
like comparing apples to oranges.
From about April through October visibility in the 3-5 ft. range is the
rule up here, not the exception. Its also known as the diving season
here.Big currents are also the rule, not the exception. Winter is a much
different story, but you can't get many people in the water when the air
temp. is 30-40 degrees F.
The seas here are also nastier, A 3-5 ft. sea up here is twice as nasty
as I remember it being in Florida. I don't know how to explain this one
except that while Florida currents usually run one direction we get two
currents trying to run against each other.
I'd like to offer food for thought on the drifting deco debate also.
Recently we were diving on a reef (70' deep)in the Straits of Juan De
Fuca. This reef is so small ( about 100ft. x 25ft.) you have to Use a GPS
and depth finder to find it, but its loaded with fish. You get close with
the GPS and then watch for the blip on your depth finder. With a 2+ knot
current running we marked the site with a standard 24" inflatable float ball
with an anchor for the dive. After the first dive we went back to port for
lunch and came back using the GPS to navigate. It wasn't until we got about
50 ft. from the ball before we could see it, we were all shocked and I was
glad I wasn't doing a drifting deco. I don't know how to explain it but the
seas are just different up here.
All things said and done I would take a dive at Dunkin Rock (our diving
Mecca) over anyplace else in the world that I've dove. You haven't been
diving till you dove " The Rock".
David
Central Washington Scuba Center
www.cwscuba.com
----
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Volker <dlv@ga*.ne*>
To: Paltz, Art <Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*>; Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail)
<techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 8:44 AM
Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line; Are some diver's like Rapists?
> Art,
> 3 feet of vis in a big current is a good reason to abort a dive. For a
> cattle boat type tech operator, I'd say 3 foot vis and big currents should
> be a mandatory abort for the whole trip. If its just 2 or three of us, I'd
> need a good reason to decide the dive is worth doing. Once its over 10 or
> 15 feet vis, the dive can be plenty of fun.
> Regards,
> Dan
>
>
>
> Hey Dan,
>
> Now that really scares me and I'm not easily scared. The thought of being
> dropped to the sand in 3 ft. of viz. is crazy! I can see it now, drop in
on
> the Chopa, you'll know then you've found the wreck cause it'll find you
> first. Even in a small 1 knot current, with 3 or less viz. you'll end up
> smacking into the mono-filament covered side before you know it. I can
> understand the possibility of dropping a shot line and going down that but
> free dropping to the wreck simply won't work up here! I've got goose
bumps
> just thinking about it! Honestly, 20 foot viz. is considered good viz. up
> here, no kidding. We occasionally get like 40 ft. but usually good viz.
is
> considered about 20 foot.
>
> Not going to comment on the Doria dives. I don't know what's going on
there
> but I too wish something would change. I've just about lost my interest
to
> dive the Doria.
>
> Thanks,
> Art.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Volker [mailto:dlv@ga*.ne*]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 6:17 PM
> To: Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail); Paltz, Art
> Cc: Bill Mee; Kirvine
> Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line; Are some diver's like
> Rapists?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paltz, Art [mailto:Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*]
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 9:14 PM
> To: Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line
>
> Hey Dan,
>
> I never said our currents were anything like your rippers
> down in Fl.
> Probably the strongest current any of us would get in the
> water with is
> about 2 knots. Just an estimate though. This being said,
> hanging on an
> anchor line in < 2 knot current is actually quite
pleasant.
> Rougher seas
> means more scope on the anchor line which minimizes the
> bouncing for the
> divers in the water. One of the big differences here is
> that it seems you
> guys don't have the option of hanging onto the anchor line
> even if you
> wanted to (realistically in a strong Fl. Current).
> I feel my deco time is best spent doing a slow swim in a
> horizontal
> position. I would refuse to clip to a line if I was to do
a
> NE wreck dive.
> I might hang on to it ( by hand) occasionally, but the
> clipping idea bothers
> me. I see no reason to fight a current. We like to "use"
> currents to see
> more, and to make diving more pleasurable. Fighting them
is
> like pissing in
> the wind. Is your face wet <g>?
> There are days when we have very light currents on deep
> wrecks, but
> anchoring the "only" boat to the wreck is still a bad
> idea--you never know
> when the current might suddenly increase, and a dive
planned
> for light
> current will then be a poorly planned dive.
>
> I certainly wouldn't
> want to be flapping in the breeze with a current > 2
knots!
>
> How do you guys get in the water then? If you've got a 5
> knot current I'd
> imagine it's a pretty tough descent down just like coming
up
> would be?
> Art,
> This is where our drift system makes the dive really
> pleasant. Even on low
> vis dives off of Stuart Florida ( 15 to 20 foot vis normal
> and 200 ft deep
> wrecks like the Mulliphan or the 215 foot deep
> Tugboat---each about 20 miles
> off shore), our procedure is to drop up current and drift
> into the wreck.
> This takes a good captain ( he has to estimate current
speed
> and direction
> against the dive team's descent rate) and reasonably
> proficient dive teams
> who can go immediately down with no screwing around on
the
> surface, and hit
> bottom before the current moves them farther than the
> captain has
> estimated). The fact we can hit a tug boat at 215 feet in
> low vis and big
> currents indicates the technique is not really so hard on
> "normal" size
> wrecks. On wrecks like the Mulliphan ( a Cruiser with big
> Gun Turrets) its
> size makes the drift down incredibly simple. You just fall
> down, and as you
> approach the bottom---"look, there's the wreck, coming
right
> for us <g>".
> You then swim up just a tiny bit higher than the top of
the
> wreck, and then
> once over it, you drop down into the lee side of the
> structure, out of the
> current. You hook off your torpedo float so the boat on
top
> see's you have
> settled in, and about 24 minutes later the boat will
expect
> to see the
> torpedo moving down current again, as the team(s) unhook
it,
> and begin the
> ascent. A few minutes later a safety diver will take a
> leisurely swim down
> the float line, moving with the current so he will
> experience no current,
> and he will meet up with the teams at the pre-arranged
time
> and depth,
> usually around 100 feet. Overhead, the boat follows the
> torpedo.
> Less than an hour later, the first team(s) are out of the
> water, and the
> second groups/teams can be dropped. And so on.
> Two three man teams would be the max ( at one time) I
would
> imagine putting
> on a wreck that has claimed many lives---actually, once a
> wreck has claimed
> many lives, you would think operators ( read this as the
> "Seeker" ) would
> limit teams to one three man team at a time, or may be two
2
> man teams. Much
> easier for the boat and safety divers to support, and if
> people are dead,
> more support is clearly needed.
>
>
>
> If there were boats up here with Chase Boats, ton's of
room,
> everybody
> diving similar profiles, etc. I'd dive with them. Until
> this changes I
> think I'm going to have to stick with what we have.
> Honestly, even if I had
> all the above I'd still rather hang from an anchor line.
> Drifting deco in 3
> feet of viz. just doesn't seem to appeal to me!
>
> Art.
>
> Art,
> While our Pompano Beach and deep Jupiter dives are high
> vis--80 to 150 feet
> on a regular basis, we sometimes dive north to the Stuart
> Fort Pierce area,
> for its much richer marine ecosystem. Diving the pinnacles
> which run from
> 325 to 180 is fun even in 5 foot vis, as the 10 to 15
pound
> lobsters you can
> grab don't require much vis. In the wrecks like the
tugboat,
> at 215, you see
> 40 pound groupers covering the bottom like grunts on a
reef
> in the keys or
> Fort Lauderdale. You see baitfish so thick vis drops to
zero
> until a big
> grouper blows through it with mouth wide open, scattering
> the baitfish and
> forming a tunnel you can then se through. Vis is poor here
> most of the time,
> but seeing the ocean like it was everywhere 10,000 years
ago
> is worth it to
> me. The deco part of these dives is easier than what you
> do---you are being
> dragged. We are just floating, watching the baitfish and
> amberjacks blow by
> us on the deep stops, then just baitfish up to 30 feet,
then
> baitfish and an
> occasional marlin or sailfish at the 20 foot stop.
> George created DIR diving to deal with Cave problems, but
> we've used his
> techniques on far more ocean dives than DIR will ever be
> utilized in-cave
> for. Its become more of an Ocean system than a cave
system,
> from pure
> volume of application. Its used all over the world's
> oceans, and its
> always the best way to dive. Kind of the way there is
> usually a "right way",
> and a "wrong way" to do things, DIR is just a compilation
of
> all the right
> ways. I'm sure you guys enjoy using "some" of the "right
> ways", but the
> techniques used on the Doria have DIW written all over
them.
> The dive sites
> people have died on in the NE don't kill people, the
> methods and gear used
> "contribute" heavily to the death toll, and to a lesser
> degree, too little
> diver screening. And too much "looking the other way". If
> you see a girl
> about to be raped, and you do nothing, in my book you're a
s
> bad as the
> rapist. If you see a diver geared up to DIE, you CAN NOT
> look the other way.
> I hope I don't need to explain why further.
> Regards,
> Dan Volker
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Volker [mailto:dlv@ga*.ne*]
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 6:18 PM
> To: Kirvne@Sa*. Net; Mailing Tech
> Diver List
> (E-mail); Paltz, Art
> Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line
>
> Art,
>
> The mere idea that you guys typically do
> your deco hanging
> on a fixed line,
> indicates pretty well you dive in very
light
> currents by the
> standard of
> S.Fl Tech dives.
>
> When you have a "real current", like a
Gulf
> Stream current
> blowing at 5.5
> mph, not too many NE wreck divers would
> enjoy "hanging,
> clipping , or
> whine-ing on the line for an hour or more
of
> deco. When you
> do have one of
> these "real currents", it would be stupid
to
> set your self
> up as a human
> trolling rig, flailing in the current, and
> causing serious
> muscle
> contractions as you attempt to stabilize
> yourself in this
> precarious
> position.
>
> The solution, as George has already told
> you, is having dive
> groups dive
> reasonable profiles, and to limit the
number
> of divers in
> the water at any
> one time, to a number easily managed by
the
> main dive boat
> or chase boat
> combo.
>
> As to the issue of diving in a shipping
> channel where ships
> will ignore even
> your dive boat, your idea of "clipping off
> to your big line
> sounds like a
> great way for you guys to omit deco
> obligations and go
> water skiing behind
> one of these container ships <g>.
>
> I'd use a high speed torpedo float, which
> is pulled by a
> light line, and
> which causes very small drag down on the
> shipwreck when we
> hook up to it.
> This would be for a two or three man team.
> While we don't
> normally dive
> this way, you could probably put two teams
> down on a big
> wreck at the same
> time, but much more would start increasing
> the stroke factor
> in dive
> planning. . When we finish ( each team),
we
> unhook and
> drift free for
> ascent. The boat on top follows. The
divers
> are relaxed and
> muscle
> contractions are a non-issue.
> The divers will have a safety diver
jumping
> in at 24 minutes
> into the dive
> or pre-arranged time) to check on the
> teams, and in your
> shipping channel
> scenario, to alert them to any big ships
> about to go
> through. A good safety
> diver could certainly deal with the ship
> about to be
> overhead issue, even if
> it required cutting or deflating the float
> line, and then
> deploying another
> after the ship has passed.
>
> Dan Volker
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paltz, Art
[mailto:Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*]
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 11:18 AM
> To: Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line
>
> I think you guys are missing the point.
> Drift diving with
> or without a buoy
> is very dangerous. Heck, leaving the
other
> divers on a ball
> is dangerous
> when you are chasing the other divers. If
> you had a chase
> boat maybe this
> is an option but I don't see how you're
> going to drag the
> drifting divers
> back to the main boat? Having them
drifting
> in a major
> shipping lane with
> or without a chase boat is very dangerous.
> It's much safer
> to have the
> divers use proper equipment and a strong
> enough up-line to
> tie off to the
> wreck and support the divers. Like I said
> before, if a
> container ship can
> run into a light tower siting up 150 feet,
> you think they
> are going to see
> and steer around a float ball, lift bag or
> little chase
> boat? Your best
> option is to stay close to the boat.
Maybe
> the ship will
> see the dive boat
> or can be called on the radio. By the
time
> an 800 foot
> container traveling
> at 18 knots saw a float ball it would be
too
> late to turn
> the ship. I
> really don't think the container ships sit
> there and scan
> the water with
> binoculars miles in front of themselves
> looking for a float
> ball. They rely
> on their radar and if they are looking at
it
> will steer to
> avoid a moored
> dive boat.
>
> A chase boat is a wonderful thing but I
> don't understand how
> you tow them
> back to the dive boat? If you were doing
a
> drift dive and
> the boat was
> following all the float balls, this is a
> very different
> situation. I have
> done this and although I don't like it,
it's
> very effective
> for this type of
> diving. I don't think it works well in a
2
> knot current
> with a moored dive
> boat. Being dragged at 2 knots against a
2
> knot current
> back to the dive
> boat is not my idea of an enjoyable deco
> hang.
>
> Art.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kirvine@sa*.ne*
> [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*]
> Sent: Friday, August 27,
> 1999 8:56 AM
> To: Scaleworks@ao*.co*
> Cc:
ststev@un*.co*;
> Paltz, Art;
> techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: Re: Jersey
> Up Line
>
> Release and put a buoy on
> the drifters, go
> back and stand by
> the main
> line. Those on the main
line
> should have
> already been
> checked for
> problems. If you could get
> these guys to
> coordinate,
> everyone could
> drift when the current is
> moving, and
> everyone could sit
> when it is not.
>
>
> Scaleworks@ao*.co* wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated
> 99-08-27 06:18:21 EDT,
> kirvine@sa*.ne* writes:
> >
> > << The main boat needs
to
> be free
> > from the wreck line, or
> releasable with a
> pelican, like
> the tuna
> > fishermen use when they
> get a big one on
> chumming.>>
> >
> > Standard on the boat I
> frequent most,
> Captain Janet can be
> off the mooring in
> > seconds. Should the dive
> boat chase down
> drifting divers
> and leave anyone on
> > the line or bottom with
no
> support? The
> point that was
> made here, was that
> > there is no reason to
tie
> off to a wreck
> in any situation
> to do an emergency
> > ascent, that drifting
deco
> in an open
> ocean is
> prefferable.
> >
> > <<The Jersey up reel
is
> one more
> accomodation to farm
> animal stupidity -
> > another peice of
garbage
> used to
> compensate for doing it
> wrong to start
> > with. Another
clusterfuck
> waiting to
> happen, like bondage
> wings. >>
> >
> > But why? What is this
> clusterfuck scenario
> you are
> implying is waiting to
> > happen with a jersey
> upline? If you are
> on a deep wreck
> in a team of 3, and
> > are relying on your reel
> as an upline, are
> you going to
> fit enough line on a
> > reel to account for
scope
> in the line from
> the current,
> and that is strong
> > enough to withstand
> possible chafing on
> the bottom, and
> hold 3 divers in a
> > current?
> > What is the procedure
you
> reccomend.?
> >
> > Kevin
> --
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