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Huh? George, what did your response have to do with my response? The point of my email was that people enjoy diving for different reasons. You have your likes which I won't list for you cause I'd probably get it wrong and have my ass handed to me. Personally I like wreck diving and recovering artifacts. In your environment you believe drift diving is safe (which it probably is) and in my environment I think it isn't (you obviously think it is). I really don't get the point of your response? I know you cave dive, I know you do it safely, this isn't at issue. I also know you dive in the ocean and I made no mention of this. You then took it upon yourself to tell me your whole life story and what you do. Although interesting I don't see what baring it had here other then to rattle and bash me? Your opinion and mine on the need for an up-line diving in my environment differ. We can discuss this all we want, I would just like to stay focused on this issue for the benefit of everyone. I'd love to hear the concise reasons why you believe an up-line isn't needed when diving in NJ/NY. I didn't get this form your response. Art. -----Original Message----- From: kirvine@sa*.ne* [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*] Sent: Saturday, August 28, 1999 8:31 AM To: Paltz, Art Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: Re: Jersey Up Line Art, ONE MORE TIME - I am primarily an ocean diver, have done roughly three times as many wreck dives as cave dives, do most of my diving in the ocean, do all types of ocean diving, like to ocean dive, and only cave dive once in a while. The reason I cave dive as well as I do is a direct result of what I learned in the ocean. If I can do that like I do it, how well do you think I do what I do better? HELLO ART???????? No amount of bullshit will make up for doing it wrong in the ocean. Cave diving requires longer bottom times due to the horitzontal travel, as if you were to have to dive from the dock to get to the wreck. Cave diving allows for low risk decompresion in most cases. Only the worst idiot would sit in the cave doing nothing ( like the usdct did at Wakulla ) to rack up bottom time and face the risk of the deco . I live near the ocean, I am in the water every day of my life, I have been diving, boating and swimming all of my life, I have raced sailboats , powoerboats, have taken boats from New York CIty to Ft Lauderdale off shore, have taken boats across the Carribean , have been diving and fishing in remote areas all of my life, my family still has four boats, can diagnose and fix virtually all engine problems or electricla or machanical problems on virtually any boat in minutes( ask anybody around here )and I know for a fact, that you guys have no clue what you are doing, have no understanding of seamanship, have no understanding of the risks, have no clue about the diving ( obviosuly) and have given it little or no thought, but have gone to great lengths to emulate the worst low life boat monkey idiots you can find, and to believe every last thing they told you. GOOD LUCK. YO are going to need it like so many others aht we read about when the bullshit happens and nobody can emplain it because EVERYTHING is being done wrong. I'd also like ot know what you hoovering slobs did for diving tanks when 80's were the only thing out there. I can not remember doing a deep wreck dive where I even got down to 1000 psi in a set of 80's and that is when we were diving on air, and decompressing on that air weiht no other bottles and doing your "25 minutes " of bottom time. I can remember diving a lot longer ( can not remember anything else about the dives) than that spearfishing with Volker on wrecks at 250 and doing the entire deco on those 80's and that is when I had what I consider to be a shitty breathing rate. Paltz, Art wrote: > > Now, now, we don't throw stones about you crawling into a big hole in the > ground, looking at rocks, taking water samples (real exciting IMO), then > subjecting yourself to a long deco in complete darkness possibly a really > long way from the exit. To me this is really crazy. To me the same holds > true drifting along in a current and looking at pretty fish and coral > formations and catching a defenseless lobster with no claws. Not trying to > start a fight but you're the one who started it commenting on the things we > like to do. Everyone has their own interest, this makes us individuals! > > Let's not talk about deco obligations and such. It's a shame the ocean is > so deep and we're forced to perform a 2 hour deco for a measly 25 minutes on > the bottom. > > Art. > > -----Original Message----- > From: kirvine@sa*.ne* [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*] > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 10:52 PM > To: Scaleworks@ao*.co* > Cc: ststev@un*.co*; Paltz, Art; > techdiver@aquanaut.com > Subject: Re: Jersey Up Line > > Why did we get into the water under thes conditions in the > fist place, > or why did we stay down so long that they developed? Is the > trash off of > these wrecks this important - you guys need to learn when to > not dive. > > I can see that with you guys there is a "get my money's > worth at all > costs mentality". This is called sutpidity. > > Learn to do boat rides and like them, and come back again. > > Scaleworks@ao*.co* wrote: > > > > n a message dated 99-08-26 04:52:49 EDT, > ststev@un*.co* writes: > > > > >There really is no reason to tie into a wreck for an > > ascent. (For some reason, NY/NJ divers seem to feel more > comfortable > > when they're tied to something. Hmmm, that could go to > explaining the > > bondage wings..., but I digress.) < > > > > I would seriously think about that one again. I don't care > how good the crew > > is, I do not want to be floating in the open ocean in 6' > seas hoping they saw > > my bag surface 300 to 400 ft away in the whitecaps and > spray in an emergency. > > a 20 minute hang in the current and rough seas is going to > make it very > > difficult to be found. A bag tied to the wreck, keeps you > on the wreck, the > > Coast Guard, and dive boat have the GPS coordinates for > the wreck, and know > > right where to find you. If the boat broke loose, and 10 > divers are in the > > water, they can back off, to avoid injuring a surfacing > diver, and collect > > everyone in one shot when they surface, or get close > enough for the divers to > > swim, or send a rescue swimmer with a tow line. > > > > >On wrecks, ordinarily the ascent and > > deco is performed along the anchor line, unless strong > current warrants > > shooting a bag to do a drifting deco, or if you return to > the anchor > > line to find it is not there, you shoot the bag. Your > surface > > personnel should be aware of their position and if their > anchor is > > dragging, and have responded accordingly. They should > have the chase > > boat ready and lookouts posted to spot your bag. Sound > excessive? > > Then you are not diving with adequate surface support.< > > > > SOP in the NE, except for drifting deco, this is not done, > jonlines are > > utilized to deal with excessive current. The current does > not reach speeds > > experienced in your area. > > > > >As Jim > > mentioned, the biodegradeable sisal line that is > typically employed on > > the Jersey uplines has a tendency to become weak and fail > at the worst > > possible time - in an emergency. Braided nylon line or > equivalent is a > > better choice.< > > > > Sisal is not typically employed, nor has been for years, > nylon is the choice > > for it's strength, shock rating, and non biodegradable > characteristics. > > > > >If 1/16 is unsuitable for the environment, such as in > > wrecks, then use larger or more durable line - just put > it on a well > > designed reel instead of the Jersey spool. The reel is > used for laying > > line during a penetration, and for deploying a bag if > necessary. One > > tool for two functions - starting to make sense? The > reel also allows > > deployment with one hand only, leaving one hand free to > deal with > > emergencies. It stows easily and cleanly, and is > deployable in > > seconds. < > > > > Sounds great, now tell me, when you have 300' of line laid > from your reel > > with 350' on it, and an emergency ascent is called for in > 150' of water, how > > good is that reel to you? I would love to see the one > handed deployment while > > also dealing with an emergency, how about concentrate on > the emergency first > > with two hands, and your entire brain, then get your > ascent line in place. > > I am not saying a reel is not acceptable for use as an > emergency upline, I do > > and have used mine. However, when a penetration is called > for, or I am > > running a line on a wreck for navigation purposes, a > single reel cannot be > > relied on exclusively, a secondary means of establishing a > secure upline is > > needed. Jersey uplines have also been configured in recent > years to take up > > no more space than a primary reel, and there have been a > few good threads on > > here discussing placement and deployment. The point here > is that drifting in > > the open ocean by choice is not the proper way to go in an > emergency. > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:09:28 -0400, Paltz, Art wrote: > > > > >Sean, > > > > > >I think one of the reasons you don't see them used is > because the divers are > > >doing drift diving. At least for NY and NJ the reason > we have so many great > > >wrecks in one concentrated spot is because this area is > the entrance to NY > > >and Newark/Elizabeth harbors. Thinking that an > approaching ship is going to > > >be able to see your dinky lift bag or sausage is nuts. > The dive boars > > >anchor into the wreck site. Drifting means the boat's > got to pick you up. > > >Very difficult to do when the boats got other divers in > the water. > > > > > >A container ship hit Ambrose Light tower a few years > back. It stands out of > > >the water about 150 feet and is probably 75 foot by 75 > foot at the base > > >(probably bigger). If you think they'll see a free > floating bag and worry > > >about it you'd be fish food. > > > > > >Using a wreck reel with 1/16 inch line on it won't > really cut it either. We > > >regularly send up artifacts on bags and tie them into > the wreck with wreck > > >or cave line and about 50% of the time we end up chasing > the bag down cause > > >the line has been cut on the wreck. I don't know about > the wrecks in your > > >area but in the NE they are all rusty and sharp. It's > easily cuts through > > >thin line quickly. > > > > > >Some say always use a wreck reel and tie in near the > anchor line. This is > > >also a good option assuming that a). the anchor line > will be there when you > > >return and b). your wreck line won't accidentally be > cut. Anchors come > > >dislodged from the wreck even if they are tied in or > have permanent > > >moorings. I've also seen divers get tangled in others > wreck line and > > >instead of waiting for their buddy to untangle them they > whip out the knife > > >and cut it. This naturally poses a problem to the diver > expecting the wreck > > >line to lead them back to the anchor line. I have in > this situation re-tied > > >the persons wreck line. > > > > > >Not bashing just giving the reasoning for carrying an > up-reel of some type. > > >I really don't want to start up another "Jersey Up-Reel" > thread. This one > > >was tiresome last time. > > > > > >Art. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sean T. Stevenson > [mailto:ststev@un*.co*] > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 1:41 AM > > > To: goindown@be*.ne* > > > Cc: George Irvine; Jim Cobb; > techdiver@aquanaut.com > > > Subject: Re: Jersey Up Line > > > > > > I can't tell if this is a tongue in cheek > sarcastic reply or > > >if this > > > guy really didn't get the joke. If it is the > latter case, > > >might I > > > suggest quitting diving and taking up golf... > > > > > > Chris, seriously... these upline reels are > completely > > >unnecessary. > > > I'm guessing you are diving on the Atlantic coast? > Take a > > >look at how > > > everyone else in the world does this and ask > yourself why > > >you do not > > > see these upline reels used anywhere else. > > > > > > -Sean > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:18:55 -0400, Chris Gregory > wrote: > > > > > > >Would that same buddy be there to retrieve it > should you > > >need to shoot a > > > >bag, and if he's not available what are the "DIR" > > >alternatives? > > > >Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > -- > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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