Richie, the stiffness comes at any pressure on any gas for me. That is a
whole new subject, and a better one than this is. I think it is some
kind of electrical interruptions with the higher ppo2's ( since they
have the electrons). It feels like what a potassium shortage feels like
or a calcium shortage, or even dehydration like we get on long ocean
swims  , but I feel it irrespective of how far into the dive or how deep
I am, but only notice it when I am using the muscles, as you suggest.

On the fear/willies, I do not feel that anymore at all with any of the
gases, but what we are doing is getting more routine. How about you? Do
you still feel it?

Anybody on the stiffness thing?
 

Richard Pyle wrote:
> 
> I'm not going to argue with you.  You can believe whatever you want.  When I
> first started doing deep heliox dives, I wasn't sure if it was physiology of
> psychology (=fear).  I've done it enough times now, and have discussed it
> with others who have done it enough times now, that the "fear" explanation
> just doesn't hold water. 70% helium is about right - I use a mix of 70%
> helium, 20% nitrogen and 10% oxygen, and that seems good to about 380 or so.
> Below 380, my head is relatively clear, but my muscles start to stiffen a
> bit.  This isn't obvious - it's subtle.  You might not even notice it if you
> didn't need high muscular finesse to accomplish a task (such as capturing
> fishes), but it's definitely there, and it's definitely not "fear". Either,
> as you say, you've given up deep diving and will no longer be a player, or
> you will try a bunch to deep heliox dives and will eventually come back and
> tell us something similar to what you said below:
> 
> "My 'fear' statement was pure bullshit, and I think we can all see that
> now."
> 
> Aloha,
> Rich
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: kirvine@sa*.ne* [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*]
> > Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 2:22 AM
> > To: William M. Smithers
> > Cc: Richard Pyle; TechDiver
> > Subject: Re: Helium willies- leaning from the past
> >
> >
> > No, it was fear. The next dive we did screwed up so badly that Casey
> > quit diving. I called the "jitters" dive after 3500 feet, and the next
> > dive we all ran out of gas three times - not too cool. Everyone was
> > fumbling with the bottles. After that we jacked the helium.
> >
> > In fact, when Casey came back, he thought we were still diving the lower
> > helium mixes and higher oxygen.
> >
> > JJ, Bill Mee and some of the others are actually diving pure heliox now
> > . I do not have a booster, so I am at the 70-80% zone running backed off
> > pressures in my rebreather supply bottles and my back tanks.
> >
> > We looked at all of the possibilities of what was going on with us, and
> > came to the conclusion that we needed to add more margin for error to
> > the dives to reduce the fear and add more helium to increase the clarity
> > and improve the deco results.
> >
> > I did some dives nine years ago, like when Gavin aned I put the end in
> > the Turner Sink syphon, where I intentionally used high nitrogen to calm
> > me down ( dove 15X40 ), but all it did was cause me to slow way down and
> > have screwups, like losing my pencils and lights and compass while
> > surveying, dropping them from my hand and never knowing it .
> >
> > We were diving just the two of us with no support, no backup scooters,
> > no safties, diving to thirds in a raging syphon at 295 on the roof
> > adding line. We got out of the water with no gas to our names. This is
> > the kind of thing that got Gavin and others to quit this sport.
> >
> > I changed all of that in the last few years, have done some several
> > hundred of these dives the easy way now, and can tell you that after
> > several hundred deep wreck and ocean dives and several hundred extreme
> > cave dives, it is feer, not "willies", and nitrogen is bullshit of the
> > worst order. Now we come back wtih full backtanks.
> >
> > Now we take away anything from the dive that is a concen and replace it
> > with more backup, do it right, and love it.
> >
> > Will, I am not afraid to think out loud, learn and progress. I stand in
> > stark contrast to eveyone else who fails to really go out and learn
> > anything. I do not need to take it to the point of a death to change,
> > and have actively done so for the last few years.
> >
> > My "willies" statement was pure bullshit , and I think we can all see
> > that now. We have this down to paint-by-nunmbers at WKPP, and we are
> > still trying to improve it and learn more.
> >
> > You will note that you never saw me ever recommmend any of the insanity
> > we did in the past, and in fact Gavin said that if I ever told anyone
> > about any of our personal dives, he would deny it. The problem was the
> > he and I were bad company for each other when there was line on the reel
> > and open cave in front of us. The reality is that we are both here by
> > the Grace of God only, and we both owe it to everyone else to tell the
> > truth and show how it really should be done. Also, the caves are so long
> > now that our past bullshit would not cut it .
> >
> > Now we "walk down and ( do) them all", so to speak.
> >
> > William M. Smithers wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Richard Pyle wrote:
> > > > > Will, this effect is called "fear" - what more of these
> > guys need - not
> > > > > pre hpns. It comes from the sudden realization that you are doing
> > > > > something very stupid, and then the environment becomes
> > more facinating
> > > > > than the fear.
> > > >
> > > > Ah ha! Just as I suspected.  You've never actually done a deep heliox
> > > > dive, have you....?  Just try a few - especially with fast descents.
> > > > You'll come around.
> > >
> > > Who knows, but here's the quote I was thinking of - from Sept. 3, 1997
> > >
> > > ltgmirvine@sa*.ne* <George Irvine> wrote:
> > > > narcosis in that case.  That side may be easier to explain that the
> > > > helium jitters. Otherwise, Casey told me I was acting jittery
> > on a dive
> > > > that was routine and easy, so maybe it is there for real.
> > >
> > > -Will
> >
> >

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