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JT - this is what I am saying exactly. Sure, I could dive any stupid gear, but I'd rather dive while I am diving and not fight gear. I'd also rather be ready to deal when the shit hits the fan, instead of making it constantly hit the fan. We are on the same page here, it is just that I do not mind getting in these guys' faces over it, since they are causing the problems. Capt JT wrote: > > George , I would be glad to talk about the basic things these new divers > should already know before doing these kinds of dives , even with the CF of > gear that the old timers use they are able to cheat death ,why, but it is > the new techdiver that copies these guys that are the ones that die.I have > a long weekend of diving if the weather is good and will be glad to openly > talk about this stuff when I get back. > > JT > > At 06:07 AM 8/20/99 -0400, kirvine@sa*.ne* wrote: > >JT, more interesting would be your account of how the rest of you lived > >through this very tough dive, and for amusement, maybe a summary of some > >of the more ridiculously stupid gear setups. > > > > > >Capt JT wrote: > >> > >> Hi Joel > >> First I don't know what boats you have been diving on , I have a guess , > >> but I don't think any of those would have and I know the Seeker did not > >> have that much scope out , as the wreck comes up to 180ft and that is where > >> it was tied in at, the line was nearly straight up and down , at the most > >> 240ft was in the water , now if you were using a sand anchor you would need > >> to have that much rope out(4-500ft) for the bottom depth of 240ft to hold > >> the bottom. > >> > >> As for the diver changing his mind and doing the dive , that did not happen > >> , have done much thinking and looking into the facts , the search for > >> Charlie covered all the points that he could have been at,based on the all > >> divers recall of the current direction and position of the boat and he was > >> found based on if he had passed out at 140-160ft.I will when I have time > >> make a drawing and place it on my web site with the story that is already > >> there if you do not understand. > >> The Doria is a great dive don't you think , when was the last time you > >> dived her? > >> > >> JT > >> > >> www.capt-jt.com > >> > >> At 01:02 AM 8/18/99 -0400, Joel Silverstein wrote: > >> >But I want to know how an overweighted diver gets blown onto a wreck when > >> >the current is holding the boat at anchor with 4-500 feet of rode out. The > >> >angle just does not put him on the wreck. It puts him in the sand and > >> >debris field unless..... > >> > > >> >After he called the dive and blew off the other two he decided to take a > >> >little dive and then had the problem on the bottom. Take out your > >> >triangles and graph paper and try it out ... > >> > > >> >regards > >> > > >> >jds > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >At 10:41 PM 8/17/1999 -0400, Ted Green wrote: > >> > >> >> > >> >> George, > >> >> Do you ever wonder why people don't follow what you preach > >> >>or are reluctant to post information on diving fatalities? It's because > >> >>they have to read crap from you in return for posting information. > >> >> > >> >> Charlie didn't die because he was diving the Doria. > >> >> Charlie didn't die because he was wearing a pony bottle. > >> >> Charlie didn't die from the wrong mix in any of his tanks. > >> >> Charlie didn't die from not having a buddy going up the anchor line. > > >> >> > >> >> Charlie probably died from a CO2 hit. This death could have > >> >>happened just as easily in a cave in Florida swimming against an > >> >>out flow current, or doing a dive off Ft. Lauderdale trying to swim > >> >>against the Gulf Stream current. Obviously a buddy might have > >> >>been able to save him but there are certainly no guarantees. > >> >> George, why don't you direct your energy toward explaining the > >> >>increased risk of a CO2 hit from over exertion while wearing > >> >>doubles, stages, dry suit while trying to swim against a current? > >> >>Who knows, maybe you could prevent a future death by explaining > >> >>the cause, symptoms, and treatment for excessive CO2 build up! > >> >> On second thought, don't say anything. They are more likely > >> >>to listen to me because I'm not yelling at them. > >> >> > >> >> To the Techdiver Forum: > >> >> > >> >> There is a high probability that Charlie died as a result of a CO2 > >> >>hit which resulted in unconsciousness and finally drowning. > >> >> > >> >>When diving it is imperative not to over exert yourself for an > >> >>extended period of time. Excessive exertion such as swimming > >> >>against a current, combined with uncontrollable rapid shallow > >> >>breathing may indicate an excessive CO2 build in your body. If the > >> >>exertion is not halted immediately and breathing brought under > >> >>control, the diver may experience a CO2 hit which refers to > >> >>"blacking out". Drowning will likely occur unless your buddy is able > >> >>bring you to the surface and resuscitate you. > >> >> > >> >>Ted > >> >> > >> >>From: kirvine@sa*.ne* > >> >> > >> >>Mike, the only reason for using a pony is abject stupidity, and the > >> >>only reason they all skipped order it in their reports of the > >> >>accidents is that they do not want to hurt anyones' feelings. The > >> >>carnage will continueuntil the smart guys just say "NO" to the boat > >> >>monkees, and some of the worst boat monkess up there are the > >> >>most entrenched big shots - in ourworld they are called STROKES, > >> >>and in my opinion it is their stupidity that is accountable for the > >> >>death toll directly or indirectly. > >> > >> >> > >> >>If I were doing what I do and recommending dangerous stupid > >> >>practices, I would be as criminal as these guys are. The only > >> >>difference is I know better, I learn, I recognize when I am wrong and > >> >>fix it, and I admit it and point it out. These half wits are incapable of > >> >>any of this. Boy , would I love to get some of these strokes in the > >> >>water to show them jsut how bad they really are, since people > >> >>dying around them does not have any impact. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>From: <kirvine@sa*.ne*> > >> >> > >> >>> Ted, there has never been a manifold failure, and the mode of > failure is > >> >>> to lose the knob with a freeflwoing reg and no isolator - solution is > >> >>> "buddy", a dirty word up there. > >> >>> > >> >>> The ari pony or any pony is so stupid and so ridicoulous as to not > >> >>> merrit anything but laugter, if it were not for the track record at > >> >>> hand. > >> >>> > > >> >>> I dive further into caves than most of these wrecks are offshore, > and I > >> >>> have no pony bottle - that is patently absurd. If they are scared, and > >> >>> do not trust the buddy, maybe they need to carry a buddy bottle of > >> >>> proper mix as a stage, but this is also total bullshit. They need to > >> >>> start doing it right. > >> >>> > >> >>> Secondly, these guys have bullshit rigs and do not know how to operate > >> >>> as buddies, and that is why the are having problems. Quit defending > >> >>> these morons. You are in the business, and it is your ass they are > >> >>> kicking , not mine. I dive wherever and whenever I want no matter how > >> >>> badly the rest of the world screws up, as evidenced by the fact that > >> >>> they let us back into Wakulla after the Stone Fiasco, and they asked > >> >>> Jarrod to come do the Britannic. > >> >>> > >> >>> Ted ,these guys are idiots - they need a wakeup call, and obviously no > >> >>> number of deaths is going to do the trick. They need to get banned from > >> >>> diving out there to make the point. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Ted Green wrote: > >> >>> > > >> >>> > George, > >> >>> > While I am not a proponent of this practise, divers who > put a 30 > >> >>> > or 40 cuft. pony on the back of their doubles, do so to have a > >> >>> > completely independent source of gas. The reason for this they > >> >>> > claim is that if you strike the isolator and break the manifold > >> >>> > causing a rapid gas loss, there probably will not be a knob left to > >> >>> > close the isolator down with. This practice is a hold over from > >> >>> > single outlet doubles. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > As to the cause of Charlie's death; I talked to one of the mates > >> >>> > on the boat a week after Charlie's death. He said that Charlie had > >> >>> > lost the travel line that runs from the point of entry to the anchor > >> >>> > line. Instead of surfacing and regaining the line, he swam against > >> >>> > the current to the anchor line and had to let go of the anchor line > >> >>> > several times on his descent to go around divers hanging on the > >> >>> > line. The mate felt that Charlie over exerted himself trying to catch > >> >>> > up to one of his two buddies and swimming against the current. By > >> >>> > the time he reached 165', he may have had a massive CO2 > >> >>> > headache. He signalled to his buddies he was aborting the dive, > >> >>> > and blackout on the way up. > >> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > While all the crap that has been posted over the last few weeks > >> >>> > may have been possible. I believe that a CO2 hit is a more likely > >> >>> > explanation for him aborting the dive at 165' and blacking out on the > >> >>> > way up. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Ted > >> >>> > > >> >>> > From: <kirvine@sa*.ne*> > >> >>> > Subject: Re: Petting the Air Pony: was Re: Doria > Deaths > >> >- Let's dive some air > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > Maybe also we could get one of the rocket scientist up there to > >> tell us > >> >>> > > why ponying a bottle behind your back with the bottle turned on > with > >> >the > >> >>> > > reg over your shoulder mixed in with the other two makes any sense, > >> and > > >> >>> > > why trying to combine a totally unnecessary bailout, a suit > inflation, > >> >>> > > and a travel gas all in one where the gas in question, AIR, is > not the > >> >>> > > right gas for any of those applications, and why it is a good > idea to > >> >>> > > put a reg on an inflation bottle , why we need a pony with a > dual port > >> >>> > > manifold, why we need it behind us, why it should be AIR, and why > >> >nobody > >> >>> > > up there has ever bothered to question any of this nonsense. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > -- > >> >>> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> >>> > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> >>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>-- > >> >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> >>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> >> > >> > > >> >-- > >> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > > > > > >-- > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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