This thing has been so beat to death, it would make a hell of a tender
steak.

I personally could give a flying rat's ass if Wrolf, William, Susan or
anyone else wore 2 or 152 bottom timers.  The argument that resulted was
that if you are diving with a buddy you have a back-up...theirs.  If you
feel more comfortable with the 2nd bottom timer, wear the hell out of
it...THAT WAS NEVER my argument...but others have construed it as such.

I dive a back-up mask because my buddy obviously would not have that for me.
If you wear contacts, bring a backup mask with lenses in it, worse case you
could switch to your back-up in the case you lost a lens.  Back-up
fins...that's a bit extreme...even to me William Allen's DIR God appointee.
This thread has now reached the point of absurdity.

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: Moriarity, Sr., Robert <MoriarityR@CT*.co*>
To: Sean M. Cary <SMCARY@MI*.CO*>; Wrolf Courtney <wrolf@wr*.ne*>;
William Allen <william@ca*.co*>
Cc: TECH LIST <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 5:53 PM
Subject: RE: Redundant Equipment and Holgarth


>Back to the original question about a second BT.
>What is the harm of strapping to your console hose a BT or a Watch?
>
>I have heard lot's about DIR preaching redundancy. Does this included a
>second set of fins or mask? What about the people who dive with contacts or
>glasses. I know this might get me flamed, however, If you loose your
>prescription mask or your mask and contacts are you not fucked? Where is
the
>so called 100% DIR redundancy in that. Talk about really needing a buddy
>now.
>
>We dive with an accepted amount of risk. Just accept the fact that 100%
>redundancy does not exist in diving, cave, wreck, ocean, salvage or the
>military. With or with out a buddy or second Bottom timer. The more we
train
>with any given, tested and tried method the better we will become at it and
>the more we will reduce the oh shit factor.
>
>Robert A. Moriarity Sr.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sean M. Cary [mailto:SMCARY@MI*.CO*]
>Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 1:29 PM
>To: Wrolf Courtney; William Allen
>Cc: TECH LIST
>Subject: Re: Redundant Equipment and Holgarth
>
>
>Wrolf, don't even start.  When you have as many dives as the booties I am
>wearing, then please feel free to comment...cyber diving does not count
>Your self-avowed change to DIR is as hollow as Williams argument that you
>can be as safe solo as you can with a buddy.  The argument presented is
that
>in dirty water, hunting, phototog etc, you can't be expected to stay with a
>buddy...that is bull.  I know a ton of Force Recon Marines, who by the
>nature of their jobs dive in the dirtiest, shittiest conditions possible,
>yet they still practice and maintain 100% buddy integrity.  How would that
>be any different from diving anywhere else?  I have done salvage jobs in
>ZERO vis, and we still maintained buddy contact via a tug line.  The buddy
>system is like anything else...it requires practice, vigilance and a
>commitment by BOTH divers to give 100% during the dive.  Why do you find
>that so hard to rationalize?
>
>This entire argument started with someone asking about two bottom
>timers...not the ability to solo dive.  My response was that in a technical
>diving situation, you are 100% better off with a buddy (your redundant
>bottom timer in this instance) then without.  Debate it all you want, the
>proof is there that a bad (Derek Mcnulty) or a non-existent buddy (Check
the
>Doria deaths for Solo deaths) is more dangerous then a well trained,
>reliable buddy.  If you don't have one, find one, dive with them in many
>other conditions and THEN if your 100% comfortable do tech with them.  My
>regular buddy has been unavailable to dive lately due to his work schedule,
>so I passed on a trip to the Hydro today...and I wanted to go bad.  Unless
I
>have a buddy I can trust 100%, I don't go.  Dive Solo to your hearts
>content, do the Doria solo until your blue in  the face...but don't ever
>profess to be DIR while doing so...its a contradiction as Jim stated
>earlier.  I don't get the "rush" Jim does by putting my life on the line
>unnecessarily.
>
>Sean
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Wrolf Courtney <wrolf@wr*.ne*>
>To: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>
>Cc: TECH LIST <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 4:00 PM
>Subject: Re: Redundant Equipment and Holgarth
>
>
>>
>>William Allen wrote:
>>
>>> My point if you count your buddy as your redundant back up, how is that
>>> safe? Never, Never, never count on some one else to pull your butt out
of
>a
>>> sling. If you do count on him, and while diving get separated what
>happens?
>>> A buddy is nice to have, but to count on him how is that rational. We
>dive
>>> in an area where buddy separation is a fact of life, turn your head,
stop
>to
>>> see something and he's gone, a feature of poor visibility diving. I'm
>sorry
>>> if I feel increased danger doesn't stop me from enjoying things I like.
>It's
>>> called risk management it's throughout one's life from bankers,
>businessman,
>>> to insurance people. You look at the risk, do your planning to minimize
>it,
>>> than rationally decide is there an alternative and then you ask can I
>accept
>>> this risk?
>>> I think some of the most dangerous diving i have ever heard of is what
>the
>>> wkpp does. These guys know the risk, work every posible angle to
minumize
>>> the risk. The accept a very real risk every time they do this, should
>they
>>> say no because of the risk? I know they look at their dive buddies as a
>last
>>> line of defense, there if all else fails. The first line should always
be
>>> you and your brain, your equipment, your personal redundency. Most
>buddies,
>>> unless you dive reguarly togther, share goals and have similar skill
>levels
>>> can add more risk than redundecy.
>>
>>Couldn't agree with you more William, especially the last sentence.
>>
>>Do not expect to have a rational conversation with Sean.  It is like those
>post
>>dive
>>conversations with the buddy who disappears.  They see themselves as in
>>the right, now what's the question?
>>
>>--
>>Wrolf              wrolf@wr*.ne*
>>
>>Wrolf's Wreck:     http://wrolf.net
>>Wrolf's Net.Wreck: http://wrolf.net/netmgmt.shtml
>>
>>
>>--
>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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>
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